The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[irdeggman]

I still have trouble with people comparing GPP to GSP.

GPP gives you the benefit for a "single" manifestation. It expends your focus which requires a minimum of a move action in order to regain. While a sorcerer can cast and move a psion must cast and stay (while meditating to regain his focus). With the generally shorter range of powers this can be a pretty big drawback since if the opponent wasn't felled with the first attack then he is most likely to be right on top of the manifester before the round is over.

Then the manifester has the problem of AoO.

Manifesting generates an AoO.
Meditating generates an AoO.
Moving (other than a 5 ft step) generates an AoO.

While the sorcerer gets a single AoO from casting, but since he could move after casting and more of his spells have a longer range he is much more likely to avoid the melee issue altogether.

 

[irdeggman]

1) The Sorcerer has to want to be psionic in nature to take Wild Talent, otheriwse, he is locked out. This could easily have roleplaying implications a given player does not want for his draconic Sorcerer (for example).

Hmm seems to me that due to the similarities between wild talent and sorcerer's natural spellcasting abilities that the two would almost always go hand in hand. Especially in a psionics is transparent setting.


But we are not talking about role-playing issues here we are trying to do a straight up comparison of the advantages of each class from a mechanics standpoint.

 

[KarinsDad]

It is but only because the psion gets bonus feats to use. Stating that they get more from their feats isn't addressing the class strengths - it is talking to the strength and/or versatility of the feats. That is the main point is stating it isn't a "class" advantage to get more from the feats.

To each their own.

My perspective, some psionic feats are overpowered.

Psions get the equivalent of Wild Talent for free which effectively means that they have an easier time of getting these overpowered feats. Hence, they have an advantage in this area.

Is it easier for a Psion to acquire these feats? Yes. Hence, he has an advantage here.

To dismiss the Psionic feats from the discussion just because a Psion does not have to take them is a disservice. The fact is, he has the option of taking them and it is easier for him to do so.

 

[Nail]

Nice thread, KarinsDad. This list could be quite handy. Any chance of updating the first post in this thread as new items come up?


Jackelope King, could we keep comments like

...If you bothered to count the powers in the XPH....

to a minimum? It's really not neccessary to insult Thanee in order to make your point.

 

[KarinsDad]

Out of the 256 powers a psion has to potentially choose from (assuming he hasn’t selected a discipline yet), only 119 can be augmented (46.5%).

Out of those 119 augmentable powers, only 25 produce unique affects and replicate novel spell affects when augmented (9.7%). This includes powers which can be augmented to change the manifesting time to a swift or immediate action, an optionly normally only available to traditional spellcasters in supplimental spells.

Out of those 25 novel spell affects, only 17 have a unique affect which is not a change in manifesting time to a swift or immediate action (6.6%). These are:
1. Anchored Navigation: Establish a mishap-free teleport beacon. (extraplanar affect)
2. Animal Affinity: Gain +4 enhancement to one ability. (replicates multiple animal’s x spells)
3. Astral Caravan: You lead astral traveler-enabled group to a planar destination. (generate concealment)
4. Astral Construct: Creates astral construct to fight for you. (create novel constructs)
5. Aura Alteration: Repairs psyche or makes subject seem to be something it is not. (increase in potency)
6. Brain Lock: Subject cannot move or take any mental actions. (target novel creatures)
7. Charm, Psionic: Makes one person your friend. (target novel creatures)
8. Clairtangent Hand: Emulate far hand at a distance. (emulate other powers)
9. Crisis of Breath: Disrupt subject’s breathing. (target novel creatures)
10. Danger Sense: You gain +4 bonus against traps. (grants uncanny dodge abilities)
11. Detect Teleportation: Know when teleportation powers are used in close range. (increase units of range)
12. Dominate, Psionic: Control target telepathically. (target novel creatures)
13. Empathic Transfer, Hostile: Your touch transfers your hurt to another. (change area of effect)
14. Empathy: You know the subject’s surface emotions. (increase of units of duration)
15. Evade Burst: You take no damage from a burst on a successful Reflex save. (grants improved evasion)
16. Mindlink: You forge a limited mental bond with another creature. (target hostile creatures)
17. Trace Teleport: Learn destination of subject’s teleport. (increase units of range)

Out of those 17 truly novel spell affects, only 5 do not appear on a discipline list (2.0%) and are available to any psion. These are:
1. Aura Alteration: Repairs psyche or makes subject seem to be something it is not. (increase in potency)
2. Empathy: You know the subject’s surface emotions. (increase of units of duration)
3. Evade Burst: You take no damage from a burst on a successful Reflex save. (grants improved evasion)
4. Danger Sense: You gain +4 bonus against traps. (grants uncanny dodge abilities)
5. Trace Teleport: Learn destination of subject’s teleport. (increase units of range)

Good data points. Thanks.

 

[irdeggman]

My perspective, some psionic feats are overpowered.

Should be a different thread though. There are many feats that people consider overpowered, not just psionic ones.

Psions get the equivalent of Wild Talent for free which effectively means that they have an easier time of getting these overpowered feats. Hence, they have an advantage in this area.

Is it easier for a Psion to acquire these feats? Yes. Hence, he has an advantage here.

To dismiss the Psionic feats from the discussion just because a Psion does not have to take them is a disservice. The fact is, he has the option of taking them and it is easier for him to do so.

My point is that if the psion's advantage is in the fact that he gets bonus feats then this advantage is already covered via the 5 advantages for feats. Double counting it only skews the list.

Any character can take the feats to get them there but because the psion has those bonus feats he can use them as he sees fit (well on a specific list of feats) so that is the advantage and not that his feats aree more powerfurl it is that he can take more of them (via the bonus feats) which is already covered as an advantage.

 

[KarinsDad]

S5: Over the range of levels it appears that this should actually be a wash or at least a lesser benefit.

Actually, it's a good sized benefit. Even at levels 2 though 7, the psion only has a slight edge. At higher levels, the Sorcerer has a significant edge.

I might not have been clear on what S5 is. It is the "can cast more spells at most levels" advantage of the Sorcerer.

In other words, if you convert all of the Sorcerer 1st through x level spells to PPs, the Sorcerer get more PP than the Psion.

The Sorcerer cannot cast more high level spells, but he can (generally) cast more spells. This assumes that the Psion is not using 1 PP to manifest all of his first level powers and never augmenting them or manifesting higher level powers (which is a bit of an extremist situation, even though the Psion could do it).

P6 – This should be “Higher level Powers/Spells known” vice “Powers/Spells Known”. A psion can take more higher level powers than a sorcerer can spells. This is a true advantage. Another Sorcerer advantage should be added to address more spells known. This is different – a sorcerer always gains more spells known than does a psion. This translates into more choices and more versatility.

The Psion actually knows more powers and can know more same level powers than a same level Sorcerer does spells (if you discount 0th level spells which I do and since I added them in as a separate merit).

It's not just that he can have more higher level powers, it's that he has more powers to choose from at every level. And if he picks the highest level powers, he has more of them as well.


PS. Could you please drop the word "vice" in your posts. I have no idea what it means and hence lose the thread of what you are trying to say. I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets confused by it. Do you mean "instead of" when you write it? If so, please say "instead of".

 

[Rystil Arden]

Your data is skewed a little.

The first number is: Psion gets normal GSP plus he gets Empower which is 3 feats.
The second number is: Psion gets GPP which is 2 feats.

To compare apples to apples, you should compare 2 feats vs. 2 feats or SP + Empower versus GPP.

Not quite--I did start out by making the assumption that the Psion has something else to do with the focus already (and I have never ever seen a Psion who didn't because it would be shooting yourself in the foot for non-SR monsters to do so and you can easily have the feats to do it)

I am comparing a Psion with GSP and Empower to a Psion with GPP and Empower (the latter of which he cannot use as a result of using GPP). That is comparing apples to apples.

 

[AuraSeer]

P19: Psions have direct "action gain powers" which Sorcerers rarely have access to. [...] Sorcerers ability to do this directly tends to be limited to Quicken Spells (which are costly compared to Schism) and Time Stop (which is a 9th level spell).

Note that sorcerers cannot even Quicken their spells. A metamagicked spontaneous spell is cast as a full round action, which overrides the effect of Quickening it.

A sorcerer's only options for multiple spellcasting are time stop and shapechange (into a choker). It's a 9th-level spell either way.

 

[KarinsDad]

Should be a different thread though. There are many feats that people consider overpowered, not just psionic ones.

That's were I disagree. I consider many of the feats to be stronger than the core rules equivalent feats. I also consider some of the feats to be fairly "psionic specific" and hence not useable by non-psionic characters.

This is important in a listing of balance and should not just be dismissed.

My point is that if the psion's advantage is in the fact that he gets bonus feats then this advantage is already covered via the 5 advantages for feats. Double counting it only skews the list.

Any character can take the feats to get them there but because the psion has those bonus feats he can use them as he sees fit (well on a specific list of feats) so that is the advantage and not that his feats aree more powerfurl it is that he can take more of them (via the bonus feats) which is already covered as an advantage.

Any different class character cannot just take and use all of those feats, Overchannel for example.

If you want to look at this merit another way, we can just say that Psions get the equivalent of Wild Talent for free, hence, it is easier for him to get these feats.

Or, are you claiming that this is not an advantage of Psions?