The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Dinkeldog]

The other is that Time Hop does not given an additional Will Save every round either. Hold Person does.

Actually, Time Hop gives a Wisdom check every round to end it.

Time Hop is actually much stronger overall than Hold Person. It can hold larger creatures and it can be used on multiple creatures.

You can throw Time Hop at 4 creatures and if 2 of them fail the save, you only have 2 creatures to deal with for those 11+ rounds.

I think we're going to disagree over which is much stronger overall. It's an opinion, though, and we're allowed to have different opinions.

Plus, you can only Coup De Grace with Hold Person if you are close enough. If no allies are within 10 feet of the target held on their turn, then no Coup De Grace until they get close enough (and by then, the target might no longer be held).

Unless you have an ally that is Hasted so that they get an extra move equivalent action, right?

Plus, you can Time Hop a guard, move past his location, and he might never know that someone went past him (if he does not know someone manifested against him). If you do Hold Person on him, he is aware.


I do not know of any players who take Hold Person anymore. It is just too weak. I'm sure they exist out there, I just do not know of any. I sometimes have an NPC take it for various reasons like disciplining a subordinate.

I don't know I'd allow someone to be affected by Time Hop and not realize it. Maybe if they were in an isolated hallway with nothing moving and no ambient noise. At the very least, I would have some kind of spot check to see if they recognize that things change without cause. But if I Hold a guard, I move up and CdG him.

I don't know many wizards or sorcerers that take Hold Person, but I do know a lot of clerics that do.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Might be worth looking at this again.

For instance

a) Cerebremancer may be better than mystic theurge because it is the same key ability score for both components (INT rather than INT + WIS)

Sorcerers use CHA as the key ability score, right?

So INT + CHA if we're comparing sorcerers.

 

[irdeggman]

Didn't have time to get back to this one.

Yes, I had a hard time with this one.

The trade issue is a bit moot when we are talking big ticket Gold Piece spells or powers. You have to craft a lot of arrows and find a big market to get 500 GP or 5000 GP.

The trade issue comes in with crafting magical items, but then you are giving up Experience Points in order to trade that for Gold Pieces anyway.

And yes, I understand that Experience Points are like Platinum Bars to some players whereas Gold Pieces are just Gold Pieces.

But, that is a personal decision, not a game mechanic decision. In the game, the ratio tends to be 25 GP = 1 XP for many things.

But, I'm not seeing anything significant here on most powers and similar spells. Maybe you could point out several similar powers / spells where the advantage is really obvious.

The point about exp being worth more than gp is that in order to gain exp a character has to take a risk and there is always a chance they will die in an encounter.

Profession and selling skills (like spellcasting or psionic use) do not necessarily equate to a loss of exp. It all depends on the style of game. If there is down time then this is easily done, if not then it isn't. Bottom line is that the rules allow for generating gp outside of adventuring and outside of normal time so it is a clear advantage for sorcerers since there is no risk associated with making money while there is with earning exp. If there was no risk then there would be no exp earned.

PHB pg 129 gives a price to pay (or charge) for casting a spell. Easy money. Basically it is Cl x 10 x spell level (0 level is 1/2 level for this purpose) in gp. Assuming no expensive components or exp cost.

Again the rules allow it so it has to be conisdered as a viable means of gaining gp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Unless you have an ally that is Hasted so that they get an extra move equivalent action, right?

... which doesn't exist in 3.5.

 

[irdeggman]

Sorry, I was unclear with the word choose.

S9 handles what you just demonstrated, I just did not break it down for each level.

P6 is about:

Psion
1st level – 3
2nd level – 5
3rd level – 52
4th level – 54
5th level – 542
6th level – 544
7th level – 5442
8th level – 5444
9th level – 54442
10th level – 54444
11th level – 544441
12th level – 544443
13th level – 5444431
14th level – 5444433
15th level – 54444331
16th level – 54444333
17th level – 544443331
18th level – 544443333
19th level – 544443334
20th level – 544443336

Sorcerer
1st level – 2
2nd level – 2
3rd level – 3
4th level – 31
5th level – 42
6th level – 421
7th level – 532
8th level – 5321
9th level – 5432
10th level – 54321
11th level – 55432
12th level – 554321
13th level – 554432
14th level – 5544321
15th level – 5544432
16th level – 55444321
17th level – 55444332
18th level – 554443321
19th level – 554443332
20th level – 554443333

At every level, the Psion has more powers in his list than the Sorcerer has in his list (without counting the dinky 0th level spells). For example, at level 10, the Psion has 21 powers (more if he took Expanded Knowledge).

The Sorcerer has 15 spells at level 10.


S5 is about the fact that the Sorcerer can cast more spells per day than the Psion can manifest powers (assuming the Psion does not cast all 1 PP powers) except in the level ranges 2 through 7 where the Psion can manifest slightly more.

I changed the wording of S5 to hopefully make it more clear.

Level SorcererTotal SorcererTotal (– 0 level) PsionTotal
1st 6 2 3
2nd 7 2 5
3rd 8 3 7
4th 10 4 9
5th 12 6 11
6th 14 7 13
7th 17 10 15
8th 19 9 17
9th 22 14 19
10th 24 15 21
11th 28 19 22
12th 29 20 24
13th 32 23 25
14th 33 24 27
15th 36 27 28
16th 37 28 30
17th 39 30 31
18th 40 31 33
19th 42 33 34
20th 43 34 36


1ST-LEVEL PSION/WILDER POWERS
Astral Traveler: Enable yourself or another to join an astral caravan-enabled trip.
AttractionA: Subject has an attraction you specify.
BoltA: You create a few enhanced short-lived bolts, arrows, or bullets.
Call to Mind: Gain additional Knowledge check with +4 competence bonus.
CatfallA: Instantly save yourself from a fall.
Conceal Thoughts: You conceal your motives.
Control FlamesA: Take control of nearby open flame.
Control Light: Adjust ambient light levels.
Create Sound: Create the sound you desire.
Crystal ShardA: Ranged touch attack for 1d6 points of piercing damage.
Daze, PsionicA: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
DecelerationA: Target’s speed is halved.
Déjà VuA: Your target repeats his last action.
DemoralizeA: Enemies become shaken.
Detect Psionics: You detect the presence of psionics.
DisableA: Subjects incorrectly believe they are disabled.
Dissipating TouchA: Touch deals 1d6 damage.
Distract: Target gets –4 bonus on Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Ecto ProtectionA: An astral construct gains bonus against dismiss ectoplasm.
EmpathyA: You know the subject’s surface emotions.
Empty MindA: You gain +2 on Will saves until your next action.
Energy RayA: Deal 1d6 energy (cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) damage.
Entangling Ectoplasm: You entangle a foe in sticky goo.
Far HandA: Move small objects at a limited distance.
FloatA: You buoy yourself in water or other liquid.
Force ScreenA: Invisible disc provides +4 shield bonus to AC.
Grease, Psionic: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery.
HammerA: Melee touch attack deals 1d8/round.
Inertial ArmorA: Tangible field of force provides you with +4 armor bonus to AC.
Know Direction and Location: You discover where you are and what direction you face.
Matter Agitation: You heat a creature or object.
Mind ThrustA: Deal 1d10 damage.
MissiveA: Send a one-way telepathic message to subject.
My LightA: Your eyes emit 20-ft. cone of light.
Precognition, DefensiveA: Gain +1 insight bonus to AC and saving throws.
Precognitionion, OffensiveA: Gain +1 insight bonus on your attack rolls.
Prescience, OffensiveA: Gain +2 insight bonus on your damage rolls.
Sense LinkA: You sense what the subject senses (single sense).
Skate: Subject slides skillfully along the ground.
Synesthete: You receive one kind of sense when another sense is stimulated.
Telempathic Projection: Alter the subject’s mood.
VigorA: Gain 5 temporary hit points.



0-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS (CANTRIPS)
Abjur
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Conj
Acid Splash: Orb deals 1d3 acid damage.
Div
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Ench
Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
Evoc
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
Flare: Dazzles one creature (–1 on attack rolls).
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Ray of Frost: Ray deals 1d3 cold damage.
Illus
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Necro
Disrupt Undead: Deals 1d6 damage to one undead.
Touch of Fatigue: Touch attack fatigues target.
Trans
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Message: Whispered conversation at distance.
Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.
Univ
Arcane Mark: Inscribes a personal rune (visible or invisible).
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.


0-LEVEL BARD SPELLS (CANTRIPS)
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Flare: Dazzles one creature (–1 on attack rolls).
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Know Direction: You discern north.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Lullaby: Makes subject drowsy; –5 on Spot and Listen checks, –2 on Will saves against sleep.
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Message: Whispered conversation at distance.
Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Summon Instrument: Summons one instrument of the caster’s choice.




The following 1st level psion powers are real similar to 0 level spells (not all are sorcerer but the psion’s power list is not a direct equivalent to a sorcerer’s in the first place). Even though some are augmentable, the gist is they are roughly equivalent to a 0-level sorcerer spell.

Control Light: Adjust ambient light levels.
Create Sound: Create the sound you desire.
Daze, PsionicA: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
Distract: Target gets –4 bonus on Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Empty MindA: You gain +2 on Will saves until your next action.
Far HandA: Move small objects at a limited distance.
Know Direction and Location: You discover where you are and what direction you face.
MissiveA: Send a one-way telepathic message to subject.
My LightA: Your eyes emit 20-ft. cone of light.
Precognition, DefensiveA: Gain +1 insight bonus to AC and saving throws.


Also note that some 0-level sorcerer spells have a continued use at all levels and so really shouldn’t be discounted.

Spells like:

Detect Magic
Read Magic
Detect Poison
Light
Open/Close
Mage Hand


So putting together the number of 1st level psion powers that match up to 0-level sorcerer spells and the number of sorcerer 0-level spells that have a continued use at all levels the total number of powers/spells known again switches back into the sorcerer’s favor. This is most notably because the largest difference without 0-level spells is only 6. At most levels it is around 3

 

[irdeggman]

... which doesn't exist in 3.5.

Correct but their movement rate is increased by 30 (up to double normal). So they can cover more ground quicker - thus reducing the number of rounds wasted in trying to get adjacent in order to CdG.

 

[KarinsDad]

So putting together the number of 1st level psion powers that match up to 0-level sorcerer spells and the number of sorcerer 0-level spells that have a continued use at all levels the total number of powers/spells known again switches back into the sorcerer’s favor. This is most notably because the largest difference without 0-level spells is only 6. At most levels it is around 3

I don't see your issue.

Both sides got a merit.

Psions for more powers. Sorcerers for more zeroth level spells.

If you give a merit for Sorcerers having more total spells, it totally ignores the fact that psions REALLY get more total powers of the same level.

 

[KarinsDad]

The point about exp being worth more than gp is that in order to gain exp a character has to take a risk and there is always a chance they will die in an encounter.

Profession and selling skills (like spellcasting or psionic use) do not necessarily equate to a loss of exp. It all depends on the style of game. If there is down time then this is easily done, if not then it isn't. Bottom line is that the rules allow for generating gp outside of adventuring and outside of normal time so it is a clear advantage for sorcerers since there is no risk associated with making money while there is with earning exp. If there was no risk then there would be no exp earned.

PHB pg 129 gives a price to pay (or charge) for casting a spell. Easy money. Basically it is Cl x 10 x spell level (0 level is 1/2 level for this purpose) in gp. Assuming no expensive components or exp cost.

Again the rules allow it so it has to be conisdered as a viable means of gaining gp.

Fair enough. Illustrate a half dozen or so powers where the Psion uses up XP and the Sorcerer uses up GP or nothing instead with an equivalent spell and I'll switch it to Sorcerer advantage.

If it is just a few powers though, it's mostly trivial. Both Psions and Sorcerers have powers / spells that use up XP. There has to be an edge for it to be considered a Sorcerer's advantage and it has to be powers and spells that do something very similar.

The reason I added it there is because I recall people talking about it, but I haven't actually seen it myself (with the exception of Mind Switch).

PS. I'm busy at work right now (and shouldn't be writing this message), but if you do not get around to doing the research, I'll do it this weekend.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, Time Hop gives a Wisdom check every round to end it.

Cool.

Boy is our PC Psion in trouble next time she pulls this off. That's what happens when you let your players read the power themselves.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't know I'd allow someone to be affected by Time Hop and not realize it. Maybe if they were in an isolated hallway with nothing moving and no ambient noise. At the very least, I would have some kind of spot check to see if they recognize that things change without cause. But if I Hold a guard, I move up and CdG him.

Agreed.

In any case, this merit is really based on Quicken Power, Schism, and Temporal Acceleration. I'll pull TIme Hop from it.

Psions can gain extra actions to prep or buff. Sorcerers do not.