The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[KarinsDad]

So psions have 8 (not counting discipline specific powers with exp costs). Depending on the discipline the psion can end up with from 8 to 12.

Sorcerers have 6.

Pretty close unless you count them as a percentage of powers/spells then it goes something like this.

Sorcerers have 6 out 370 spells with exp costs. {1.6 % of total spells}

Psions have between 8 and 12 out of somewhere around 177 (I used an average of 16 powers per discipline) {4.5 to 6.8 %}. More than double the percentage.

Thanks for doing the legwork on this.

But, the number and percentages is not what is important here. What is important in a comparison between a Psion and a Sorcerer are powers which actually have Sorcerer equivalent spells (which I mentioned earlier).

If the spell or the power has no corresponding power or spell, then it does not matter that they cost XP. If they are powers that Sorcerers cannot emulate, then whether they cost XP or not is irrelevant to the discussion. Mega-powers and mega-spells should cost XP and we have nothing to compare them to.

Just like it is irrelevant that Permanency cost more XP when used for non-personal spells. This is not a Sorcerer disadvantage. It is the cost of doing business with mega-effects for the Sorcerer. Some spells / powers are severely limited because they are game breaking if used a lot.

In fact, it is basically a Psion advantage that he has so many of these mega-powers (which go way outside the normal game parameters as to what can be accomplished) to choose from. You'll notice that the vast majoirty of the Psion Only powers that cost XP are 8th or 9th level powers. For example, Mind Switch, True is effectively eternal youth. A lot of these powers have huge benefits, in some cases surpassing minor Epic Level spells.

From this analysis, it appears to me that there are two merits here, one for Sorcerers and one for Psions:

1) Psions get more "mega-powers" (i.e. ones which are extremely powerful and cost XP because of it).
2) There are 5 powers for which Psions have to pay XP whereas Sorcerers do not have to pay XP.



The following 5 powers and spells are the ones which both of them get (at least to my knowledge, I am not very familiar with a lot of the high level Sorcerer spells, correct me if I made a mistake), but for which the Psion pays XP and the Sorcerer does not:

Similar Power and Spells, one of which cost XP:

Contingency, Psionic
Level: Psion/wilder 6
Power Points: 11, XP (15)

Contingency
Level:Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M (unusual) , F (1500 GP)


Sequester, Psionic
Level: Psion/wilder 7
Power Points: 13, XP
XP Cost: 75 XP

Sequester
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M


Mind Switch
Level: Telepath 6
Power Points: 11, XP (100)

Magic Jar (you do not keep supernatural or spell-like abilities, you do not get to pick specific targets)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, F (100 GP)


Metamorphosis, Greater
Level: Egoist 9
Power Points: 17, XP (200)

Shapechange
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F


Remote Viewing
Level: Seer 4
Power Points: 7, XP (20)

Scrying (cannot be done across planar boundaries)
Level: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF, F (1000 GP)




Similar Power and Spells, both of which cost XP. These look like a wash to me.

Incarnate
Level: Psion/wilder 5
Power Points: 9, XP (500 to 2,000)

Permanency
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, XP (500 – 2,500 for personal spells)


Bend Reality
Level: Psion/wilder 8
Power Points: 15, XP (300+)

Limited Wish
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, XP (300+)


Reality Revision
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Power Points: 17, XP (5,000+)

Wish
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP (5,000+)



Powers which have no corresponding spell. Psion advantage, regardless of the fact that they cost XP:

Psychic Reformation
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Power Points: 7, XP; see text
XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.

Matter Manipulation
Level: Psion/wilder 8
Power Points: 15, XP (250/hardness point)

Apopsi
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Power Points: 17, XP (50/level of power deleted)

Psionic Revivify
Level: Egoist 5
Power Points: 9, XP (200+)

Fusion
Level: Egoist 8
Power Points: 15, XP (50)

Mind Seed
Level: Telepath 8
Power Points: 15, XP (3,000)

Mind Switch, True
Level: Telepath 9
Power Points: 17, XP (10,000)

Time Regression
Level: Nomad 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

Genesis
Level: Shaper 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

Psychic Chirurgery (Transfer Knowledge Only)
Level: Telepath 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1000 x level of power implanted)

Metafaculty
Level: Seer 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

True Creation
Level: Shaper 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1/5 gp value, 1+)



Spells which have no corresponding power. Sorcerer advantage, regardless of the fact that they cost XP:

Simulacrum
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP (100/HD of simulacrum, minimum 1,000)

Vision
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP (100)

Gate
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP(1,000 when calling a creature only)

 

[irdeggman]

Powers which have no corresponding spell. Psion advantage, regardless of the fact that they cost XP:

Psychic Reformation
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Power Points: 7, XP; see text
XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.

Matter Manipulation
Level: Psion/wilder 8
Power Points: 15, XP (250/hardness point)

Apopsi
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Power Points: 17, XP (50/level of power deleted)

Psionic Revivify
Level: Egoist 5
Power Points: 9, XP (200+)

Fusion
Level: Egoist 8
Power Points: 15, XP (50)

Mind Seed
Level: Telepath 8
Power Points: 15, XP (3,000)

Mind Switch, True
Level: Telepath 9
Power Points: 17, XP (10,000)

Time Regression
Level: Nomad 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

Genesis
Level: Shaper 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

Psychic Chirurgery (Transfer Knowledge Only)
Level: Telepath 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1000 x level of power implanted)

Metafaculty
Level: Seer 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

True Creation
Level: Shaper 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1/5 gp value, 1+)

Simulacrum
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP (100/HD of simulacrum, minimum 1,000)

Vision
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP (100)

Gate
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP(1,000 when calling a creature only)

If you are counting powers with no equivalent spells as an advantage for psions then you need to calculate again - since there are more than 100 sorcerer spells than powers - so no matter how you cut it from that stand point the advantage is on the sorcerer side.

 

[irdeggman]

I've already broken it out as one merit to sorcerers, one merit to psions. You appear to be arguing just to argue.

No because you are also consistently stating that the 0-level spells that sorcerers get is not a real advantage and that they don't count for much. That is the "more spells" advantage you gave them. See below as an example.

Although they have their use, zeroth levels spells just skew the data. So, I called them out separately and I put them into their proper perspective. What is mostly important in the game is spells of a given level, WHEN you achieve that level. For all intents and purposes, knowing a bunch of zeroth level spells is a minor convenience at best. But, it is nowhere near the advantage of knowing 2 or 3 extra same or higher level highest level spells. And, it is not comparing apples to apples.

Same levels spells are important to compare. Zeroth level spells are mostly white noise and a very minor Sorcerer merit.

Your statement "Sorcerers know more spells" although factually correct is misleading.

How about the number of 0-=level sorcer spells that are 1st level psion spells and have constant use regardless of level?

Detect Magic
Read Magic
etc.

Dismissing this outright is plane ridiculous.

You seem to be facinated with pure firepower type spells when the sorcerer's main advantage as a caster is his versatility - having the right spell at the right time. Not in the fact that he can cast more fireballs than a wizard can, but the fact that he can choose any spell in his memory based on the situation. He is adaptive.

There are an awful lot of non-combat spells that are extremely useful and should never be discounted.

 

[Jack Simth]

Comparing spells known vs. powers known and available spells vs. available powers is kinda deceptive.

A pair of examples, one each direction:
A Sorceror wanting to do either Fire or Electricity damage with a third level spell must expend two spells known (or one and a feat); for a Psion to do Fire or Electricity damage with a third level power, (s)he needs only a single power - Energy Bolt, say - and also gets Cold and Sonic damage options as a bonus (as well as a few other nifties); effectively four different spells known for the price of one power known (although they are tightly packaged in a theme - same range, same cost, et cetera).

Likewise, a Sorceror with a bent towards [Shadow] spells can use one spell known (and a higher slot....) to effictively duplicate any one of several lower spells (with caveats: an extra "Will Partial (See Text)" save, "SR: Yes" even if the duplicated spell doesn't take SR, and reduced HP of anything built that way) while the closest equivalent for the Psion is Bend Reality (which is the Sor/Wiz Limited Wish at one level higher).

Those are just two quick examples; there are more.

Mind you, I have no idea which way the power balance ultimately lies.... which likely means they are close enough to balanced against each other using a PHB and XPH comparison.

 

[KarinsDad]

Comparing spells known vs. powers known and available spells vs. available powers is kinda deceptive.

Not really. You get one action. You cast or manifest. You get one effect. The power and utility of the effects differ, but the assumption is that WotC balanced the spells and powers out to some extent using the level system.

There is no way we can compare every spell and every power. We can mostly only look at unusual ones that give really advantageous game effects where the other class cannot compete.

A pair of examples, one each direction:
A Sorceror wanting to do either Fire or Electricity damage with a third level spell must expend two spells known (or one and a feat); for a Psion to do Fire or Electricity damage with a third level power, (s)he needs only a single power - Energy Bolt, say - and also gets Cold and Sonic damage options as a bonus (as well as a few other nifties); effectively four different spells known for the price of one power known (although they are tightly packaged in a theme - same range, same cost, et cetera).

This is handled by P22.

Likewise, a Sorceror with a bent towards [Shadow] spells can use one spell known (and a higher slot....) to effictively duplicate any one of several lower spells (with caveats: an extra "Will Partial (See Text)" save, "SR: Yes" even if the duplicated spell doesn't take SR, and reduced HP of anything built that way) while the closest equivalent for the Psion is Bend Reality (which is the Sor/Wiz Limited Wish at one level higher).

This should be another merit for the Sorcerer. Shadow spells do allow the Sorcerer to emulate entire schools of magic. In fact, I'll add in two merits, one for Conjuration and another for Evocation since the effects tend to be very different.

Those are just two quick examples; there are more.

Mind you, I have no idea which way the power balance ultimately lies.... which likely means they are close enough to balanced against each other using a PHB and XPH comparison.

Well, we currently have 23 merits for Psions and 15 for Sorcerers (including the 2 new merits for Sorcerers from you). There's a valid reason for that. I suspect that when we are done, Psions will still be in the lead.

I haven't heard a lot of "The Sorcerer can do this that the Psion cannot" type of discussions though.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Well, we currently have 23 merits for Psions and 15 for Sorcerers (including the 2 new merits for Sorcerers from you). There's a valid reason for that. I suspect that when we are done, Psions will still be in the lead.

I haven't heard a lot of "The Sorcerer can do this that the Psion cannot" type of discussions though.

So the first assumption is that each merit of the sorcerer has the same weight as the merit of a psion.

Here's a list that might help, since you break out "the psion gets a bonus feat at level 5, 10, 15, and 20," into 4 merits for the psion.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain fireball.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain polymorph self.

The sorcerer is able to take polymorph other.

The sorcerer is able to take baleful polymorph.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain Monster Summoning at any level.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain fly.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain Charm Person (or Charm Monster)

The sorcerer is able to have both Wish and Shapechange (a combination which no psion can ever have.)

There's 8.

And you haven't mentioned that the sorcerer's primary stat of CHA synergizes with the Leadership feat.

Or that a sorcerer can use an arcane scroll that mimics any sorcerer spell, so that two sorcerers can always create scrolls for each other, but two psions cannot always share encoded stones that they've created.

Or that Time Stop, when the sorcerer gets it, lasts for 1d4+1 rounds while the psion's version comes earlier, but can only last for 3 rounds at most fully augmented (requiring the psion to expend power points as on an equivalent level spell).

Ultimately, I think what we're going to do is come to an impasse where the people that walked in with the assumption that the psion was overpowered will walk away with the assumption that the psion was overpowered, while those who walked in thinking the psion is appropriately balanced will walk away with that same notion.

 

[Thanee]

How about the number of 0-=level sorcer spells that are 1st level psion spells and have constant use regardless of level?

Detect Magic
Read Magic
etc.

Dismissing this outright is plane ridiculous.

Well, I would count Detect Magic, the Psion surely has to spend a 1st level power on that one, but the other ones really are just cantrips who almost never come into play, and so are easily neglectible.

Comparing spells known by simply adding them up, what some people have done in the past (which does not mean to say you are suggesting that now, but I thought it's worth mentioning anyways), is surely completely out there, since that means you compare the Sorcerer's 0th level powers with the Psion's *highest* level powers (because that is where they got about four times more than the Sorcerer at almost every given level, not counting augmentable powers, which further increase this).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain polymorph self.
The sorcerer is able to take polymorph other.

But only, if you play 3.0 ...

There's 8.

Heh. Admittedly, I also wondered why KD listed each bonus feat seperately.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

So the first assumption is that each merit of the sorcerer has the same weight as the merit of a psion.

I have no such assumption at all.

Please give me some credit for the ability to think.

Here's a list that might help, since you break out "the psion gets a bonus feat at level 5, 10, 15, and 20," into 4 merits for the psion.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain fireball.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain polymorph self.

The sorcerer is able to take polymorph other.

The sorcerer is able to take baleful polymorph.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain Monster Summoning at any level.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain fly.

The sorcerer does not need to expend a feat to gain Charm Person (or Charm Monster)

The sorcerer is able to have both Wish and Shapechange (a combination which no psion can ever have.)

A very interesting list.

But, at least Psions can get most of these things. Sorcerers cannot gain immortality in the core rules. Sorcerers cannot create their own pocket dimension in core rules.

I won't nitpick individual spells.

You are absolutely correct that there are things that Psions are prevented from doing. Just like there are things that Sorcerers are prevented from doing.

Looking at this another way, there are things that Psions are better at. There are things that Sorcerers are better at.

Now, if you have a group of similar utility Sorcerer spells that Psions can rarely or never get, please list them and I'll add them to the list.

An example is P20: healing. Healing is important in the game. Psions have a variety of ways to do this at lower levels. Sorcerers have a few ways to do this later on.

Do I consider healing really huge? Not really. I do, however, concede that it's a significant part of the game utility-wise and is an advantage of Psions.


Note: On the feat issue, I find it amazing that people consider feats such a huge thing that many players will take a Human character, just to get one more feat at first level, but here, they are suddenly trivial. If Sorcerers got extra feats and psions did not, I would bet good money that the pro-psion people would not have a problem with me ranking one feat = one merit as an issue.

A feat is a special ability that nobody else has unless they too take the feat. For example, crafting an item. Nobody else in the game can do that unless they take that feat. Spells, typically, do not give you that same advantage although they can emulate some feats or even do the same thing plus more, often for shorter periods of time.

Feats are special. You only get so many of them in the game. To trivialize them into 5 feats = 1 merit is not impartial.

If you want to do that, you have an agenda.

There's 8.

And you haven't mentioned that the sorcerer's primary stat of CHA synergizes with the Leadership feat.

I'll add it. Done.

Or that a sorcerer can use an arcane scroll that mimics any sorcerer spell, so that two sorcerers can always create scrolls for each other, but two psions cannot always share encoded stones that they've created.

This is already handled by S2.

Or that Time Stop, when the sorcerer gets it, lasts for 1d4+1 rounds while the psion's version comes earlier, but can only last for 3 rounds at most fully augmented (requiring the psion to expend power points as on an equivalent level spell).

This is trivial. You yourself point out that Temporal Acceleration can be used for 6 levels before Timestop. Plus, you can Quicken Powers or Schism with Temporal Acceleration to get 5 rounds worth of actions every single time. Sorcerers might get 2 actions with Time Stop. The average with Temporal Acceleration is 3, the average with Time Stop is 3.5. This is nitpicking when you are talking one or two rounds per use sometimes versus 6 extra levels worth of use.

I won't be adding something like this to the list. If you have more real ones like Leadership, I'll add them.

I won't even be adding that one spell lasts one minute per level whereas the equivalent power lasts one round per level either.

That's white noise.

You have a group of spells that psions cannot gain, sure. I'll add them. But, I won't nitpick individual powers or spells to the nth degree.

Note: Baleful Polymorph above is just one more attack spell. The fact that it changes the opponent as opposed to holding or killing the opponent is not that big of a deal.

Ultimately, I think what we're going to do is come to an impasse where the people that walked in with the assumption that the psion was overpowered will walk away with the assumption that the psion was overpowered, while those who walked in thinking the psion is appropriately balanced will walk away with that same notion.

No doubt.

But, this is like Scientific Theories. If you sit down and actually dissect it, a trend starts to become readily noticable for all to take a look at. That does not happen when you argue them out in a free for all style.

And yes, some people will have differing opinions as to whether something should or should not get added to the list.

And, you'll get people who for various reasons stick to their guns no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary. They are not impartial people, but they have the right to their non-wavering opinion. Your assumption appears to be that most people are like this. My assumption is that when presented with facts, most people are reasonable.

And, there might also be people who either came in with no preconcieved notion who will fall on one side or the other, or who came in with a preconceived notion who will fall on the opposite side, just because this is broken down as opposed to just being a shouting match.


But if you do think one way or another, you have a chance here to illustrate your position.

 

[KarinsDad]

Heh. Admittedly, I also wondered why KD listed each bonus feat seperately.

I've given the main reason in the post above Thanne. I'll talk about it more later.