The Big Weighed Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Scion]

Yes, but we all know that spellcasters of any kind, psions included, kick Fighter butt if given half a chance to prepare/react. Long live Will-save based save-or-die powers!

Of course if the fighter type is immune to mind effecting then the psion cannot use any save or dies against him.. and really a large portion of the will save powers are gone as well.

Uh oh! Sorc is looking better..lol

 

[Solarious]

Of course if the fighter type is immune to mind effecting then the psion cannot use any save or dies against him.. and really a large portion of the will save powers are gone as well.

Uh oh! Sorc is looking better..lol

Well, if push comes to shove, then there's always Shatter Mind Blank, or Dispel Psionics. Or make a Quickened Astral Construct to delay while the psion probes for weaknesses and nukes the fighter's rear end the old fashioned way.... *sizzle*

But this is a hypothetical discussion on the percieved advantages or disadvantages of Sorcerors against Psions, lets not get sidetracked here. I'll comment on that when I have more time later.

 

[Scion]

Hey, you brought up the will save or die ability, I was just commenting on one of the weaknesses of the psion

 

[Solarious]

Hey, you brought up the will save or die ability, I was just commenting on one of the weaknesses of the psion

True, true, but you seem to forget that psions aren't all about mind-affecting abilities... although it is one of their more flexible areas. I seem to recall that Kineticists are -quite- capable of frying opposition in a shorter time than any Sorceror.

Now I really have to go, stop responding!

*handwaves you away*

 

[Scion]

you seem to forget that psions aren't all about mind-affecting abilities...

Are you still responding to me? My comment was 'Of course if the fighter type is immune to mind effecting then the psion cannot use any save or dies against him' which is limited to the save or dies you were talking about and is limited to mind affecting..

So... maybe you were thinking I had said something else?

 

[NexH]

5 S2: Sorcerers are not limited to a single discipline of spells. Psions are limited to a single discipline of powers.

I would say 3. Psions aren't limited to a single discipline of powers, they just can't take powers from others discipline-specific lists.

4 S8: Sorcerer can spontaneously put multiple Metamagic feats on spells. Psions can only put one metapsionics on a power unless they have the Psicrystal Containment feat which allows for a second one.

4 seems ok, but I'm not sure if Psicrystal Containment lets you spend two psionic focus at once; I believe the only way to put apply Metapsionics feats on a power is taking the Epic Psionic Focus feat.

2 S17: Some summoned creatures give Sorcerers the ability to have spells cast which he himself normally cannot cast. Very few Astral Construct abilities are this way.

I would say 3, maybe 4. Summon monster widely increases the limited spell selection of the sorcerer, giving sometimes even spells that a sorcerer could never "cast" otherwise.

3 P2: Wearing Armor does not have a failure chance for Psions.

I'd say 2. A the non-Proficiency penalties to attack rolls can hurt a lot, unless you restrict to light armors.

2 P10: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 20.

Why not 3, as the previous ones? (OTOH, 3 seems a bit high for all of them given that you have restrictions on what feats you can take with it)

4 P12: Psion powers more than get the equivalent of the Still Spell feat for all powers. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers.

3 P13: Psion powers get most of and more than the equivalent advantages of the Silent Spell feat. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers. Psions do need to concentrate to minimize Displays, but even with that, this is still advantage Psion since Sorcerers can only take Still Spell feat and use up a higher slot. The do not get the option of silencing their spells with a Concentration roll.

2,2. They aren't so significant, and the concentration roll is not a sure thing until high levels.

3 P14: Psion powers get more than the equivalent of the Eschew Materials feat. Many Sorcerer spells have material components that are worth more than 1 GP.

2.

4 P16: Psions can gain special abilities via feats that can often be used the vast majority of the time (some are limited to reacquiring the focus) which Sorcerers cannot get without taking a spell (which have shorter durations) or taking a level in a different class, but most often, not at all. These include Expanded Knowledge, Overchannel, Psionic Body, Psionic Dodge, resolving normal attacks as touch attacks via Unavoidable Strike, Fell Shot, or Deep Impact, Speed of Thought, and Up the Walls. I lumped most of the Psionic special feat abilities into this one merit because the extra feats were called out above (see P7 through P10) in individual merits and some of these abilities cannot be used simultaneously. Another way of looking at this is that Psions get the Wild Talent feat for free.

1.

3 P19: Psions have direct "action gain powers" which Sorcerers rarely have access to. Examples of these include Quicken Power, Schism (4th), Temporal Acceleration (6th), and Fission (7th). Effectively what they do is give the psion more actions per combat than his opponents. Sorcerers ability to do this directly tends to be limited to Time Stop (which is a 9th level spell).

Given the drawbacks of those powers, 1

2 P20: Psions have powers to directly heal themselves. Sorcerers have to rely upon indirect effects like polymorph or summoning creatures that can heal at very high level.

1. Psionic healing is very costly, and is only better that the healing a sorcerer has when the healing is needed ASAP (and even in those cases, they both have better options than healing).

5 P21: Psions can manifest powers at their highest manifester level every single round until they run too low on points. This ranges from about 3 highest PP powers at level one to at most 22 to 27 (campaign dependent) at level 20. Sorcerers tend to be limited to 4 to 6 of their highest level spell until they get to level 20 where they can get as high as 7.

This is very campaign dependent, so I would say 2-5

3 P22: Psions get more "mega-powers" than Sorcerers get "mega-spells". In other words, powers or spells which are extremely powerful and cost XP because of it, typically 8th or 9th level.

I would say 0, could you give some examples?

 

[KarinsDad]

I would say 3. Psions aren't limited to a single discipline of powers, they just can't take powers from others discipline-specific lists.

The reason I made it 5 is because Psions are similar to Specialized Wizards. For example, an Egoist is more or less prevented from using many of the good Energy powers (or good Telepath powers, etc.). Sorcerers can pick and choose the best from all available spells. It's a flexibility issue for classes that are limited in which spells they can choose.

When you are limited in spells or powers, choice becomes extremely critical to effectiveness.

This merit drops out "nearly entire schools of magic". To me, it is more important as a choice issue than say S3.

Why not 3, as the previous ones? (OTOH, 3 seems a bit high for all of them given that you have restrictions on what feats you can take with it)

What feats you can take with them is counterbalanced by the fact that getting them at lower levels means that you can use them for more levels.

I dropped the 20th level feat to 2 because in real life, very few Psions make it to 20th level. This is a game which has real world use. The 20th level feat is not really used as often. Not a biggy, I could have kept it at 3.

Plus, 20th level feats will not typically be used to qualify for a Prestige Class either.

The 15th level feat could still be used for that.

1. Psionic healing is very costly, and is only better that the healing a sorcerer has when the healing is needed ASAP (and even in those cases, they both have better options than healing).

It is costly. But, it allows the Psion to heal. Healing is big in the game.

I've seen 4 psions played in the game. All of them took healing. Some of them took multiple ways to heal. If a Sorcerer could do minor healing on himself, he would often jump all over it too.

I do not consider it trivial in a game where combat damage is a significant portion of how a PC can die.

This also frees up Cleric/Druid healing for other PCs.

P16 1.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. These abillities are not trivial.

Overchannel is huge. No core spellcasting class cannot cast higher than their level.

Resolving normal attacks as touch attacks is pretty big. It throws 5 to 30 points of AC out the door (no armor bonuses, no shield bonuses, no natural armor bonuses) in most circumstances depending on situation.

It makes the Psion BAB much greater than Fighter, Barbarians, Rangers or Paladins. It's like a mini-True Strike that can be used at least once in combat and often more.

Ditto for Speed of Thought. Extra movement is very helpful in combat.

And Expanded Knowledge lets Psions get powers from a totally different class. That's pretty big too. Out of the core spell casting classes (of which there are 4 major and 3 minor), only Clerics can do this and they do not get the entire selection of another classes spells, only ones which make it to a given domain list and only for domain lists of their deity.

These feats are one of the things that make Psions stronger than many other classes.

Without them, I suspect many players would not even consider playing a Psion.

I would say 0, could you give some examples?

I'm talking about the big ticket items which are stronger than many of the minor Epic spells.

For example, Mind Seed (create more of yourself), Genesis (create your own demiplane), and Mind Switch True (immortality).


This even includes such things as Psychic Reformation (which is only 4th level).

You are effectively changing reality with this power. Your character no longer knows x, y, and z skills, powers, and feats, they now know a, b, and c.

Changing reality is significant.

Psions have some (broken) powers that are merely balanced by XP. They have a lot more XP balanced powers to choose from than Sorcerers have XP balanced spells.

And, Sorcerers tend to get XP spells that allow them to cast other lower level spells or do other things which although major, are not reality altering for the most part. They cannot get rid of their low level feats and swap them for more useful ones for higher level for example.


Whenever the "bigger, badder, better" elements show up in a game, I tend to take note.

 

[Scion]

It is costly. But, it allows the Psion to heal. Healing is big in the game.

You never commented when I showed in the other thread that the arcane healing is more efficient than the psionic direct healing. Polymorph heals for less cost and earlier.

Overchannel is huge.

Beads of karma are huge

For example, Mind Seed (create more of yourself), Genesis (create your own demiplane), and Mind Switch True (immortality).

I am guessing that it is a bad joke here.

Of course, if one is evil enough to want to destroy someones mind and create a miniyou then it might not be the best plan to even use the power.. after all, they might try to kill you someday..lol

I dont know where it is from, but the SRD has Genesis as a domain power of a cleric.. plus, the cleric version of genesis is much more powerful than the psionic version. Although even failing that I am not sure how making a little home is over the top in some way. It is kindof like a higher level version of rope trick, with some extra bonuses and drawbacks.

Reincarnation gives immortality as well, although typically less choice about your final form, but then it is a lot lower level.


These threads are getting downright silly. I wonder what they will start saying next. It is almost comical.

 

[Glyfair]

I think a majority of the arguments here come with the "Feat Comparison." Feats aren't created equal (indeed, the spread of power is quite large), and people will quibble about the power level of individual feats.

1 S1: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. Psions are proficient with 6 simple weapons.

It would cost the Psion a feat for each weapon he is missing. Now clearly those feats are minor feats and very few people would spend a feat for more than one weapon (after all, you can get a huge number of "feats" by taking a single level of fighter).

2 S4: Sorcerers can swap out lower level spells as they go up levels. Psions have to use the Psychic Reformation power to do this.

I'll quibble that this should be a 3. IIRC, there have been feats that allow you to swap out spells, and that would be a feat that would be attractive to a number of characters.

4 P12: Psion powers more than get the equivalent of the Still Spell feat for all powers. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers.

3 P13: Psion powers get most of and more than the equivalent advantages of the Silent Spell feat. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers. Psions do need to concentrate to minimize Displays, but even with that, this is still advantage Psion since Sorcerers can only take Still Spell feat and use up a higher slot. The do not get the option of silencing their spells with a Concentration roll.

3 P14: Psion powers get more than the equivalent of the Eschew Materials feat. Many Sorcerer spells have material components that are worth more than 1 GP.

I'd argue that these should be reduced by a level, certainly #12. Are the feats that these abilities are "better than" commonly taken feats? Not in my experience. They are percieved as very situational and are considered sub-par feats except for certain specific character classes.

 

[Dracomeander]

This even includes such things as Psychic Reformation (which is only 4th level).

You are effectively changing reality with this power. Your character no longer knows x, y, and z skills, powers, and feats, they now know a, b, and c.

Changing reality is significant.

Psions have some (broken) powers that are merely balanced by XP. They have a lot more XP balanced powers to choose from than Sorcerers have XP balanced spells.

And, Sorcerers tend to get XP spells that allow them to cast other lower level spells or do other things which although major, are not reality altering for the most part. They cannot get rid of their low level feats and swap them for more useful ones for higher level for example.

I have to disagree with one aspect here. It will cost a sorcerer more and can't occur until later in the career so the advantage is still to the psion by a great margin, but the sorcerer can use Psychic Reformation using Limited Wish in the same manner he could duplicate clerical or other prohibited spell of 4th level or less.

In magic/psionic transparency, which is the standard suggested guideline, psionics have to be treated in the same manner as divine with regard to how Wish effects interact with them.