The Big Weighed Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Kobold Stew]

These threads are getting downright silly. I wonder what they will start saying next. It is almost comical.

This is an opinion, and one that I doubt will be shared by many. I'm finding these threads very useful and informative.

KarinsDad is trying to assess the value of these benefits, admitting that not all are equal, and of course there are going to be assumptions at work. If you can pick Beads of Karma like berries off the bush outside your house, then Sorcerers become significantly stronger. That, however, is not true in the game I play.

So when I see a disconnnect between the value assigned by the OP and what I would give, I first wonder if it is due to a difference in our play styles.

Of course, any rating system is an abstraction, and it is an abstraction of a game that deals in abstractions constantly (hit points, skills, feats, levels). We shouldn't expect complete agreement. But the exercise has value in itself, because of what it reveals about the system and how some people play.

One thing that has struck me favourably is how neutral the tone of many posters on these threads has been. People have opinions, present them, and discussion continues. But there is no need to convince others, because the OP is not arguing (explicitly) for a point of view: a view emerges from the discussion (that Psions have more range/power/strength than Sorcerers), and it is one that seems fairly well substantiated, though clearly there is room for disagreement (in both directions) in terms of degree. For some reason, it seems that this conclusion is what is "downright silly...almost comical" to you, a view you have articulated clearly, and have perhaps convinced some readers of.

But a difference of opinion should be able to exist; when you write off the whole process because you are not winning (as if there was something to win), it sounds petulant, whether it is meant so or not.

There are other ways this exercise could have been conducted. For example, you could post two equivalent ECL characters that you think are powerful (ECL 5, 10, 12, 20 -- you can choose), core rules only, and the boards would then be in a position to tweak and assess as they wish, to determine how each would fare in thier game world. If more think the Sorcerer would "beat" the Psion, however that may be interpreted (head to head, survivability in their current campaign, role-playing fun), then that would argue for your case by a different measure.

But this is not the route the OP took. If you don't like the terms of the debate, you are not required to take part.

Happy gaming,

Kobold Stew

 

[Scion]

This is an opinion, and one that I doubt will be shared by many. I'm finding these threads very useful and informative.

Of course it was my opinion. But then, most of the rest of the thread is someones opinion with a few facts tossed in occasionally.

But much of what karinsdad says is either not the whole story (such as when both can do exactly the same thing but one is ignored while the other is magnified in importance) or put forward in a very biased fashion (so biased in fact that it is almost painful to read).

Of course there are useful bits of information, I am just trying to get the point out of more useful information and less overreacting.



So, again, lets stick to what the thread has in mind and go for that goal. I realize that some may not be happy with my trying to cut through the smoke screens, but it is important to do if any sort of useful comparison is going to be made.


There are pros and cons on each side, definately. Some things one is better at than the other. It doesnt matter who 'wins' in the end, but it is all important to make sure that the comparisons are as straightforward and unbiased as possible.

 

[Scion]

I think a majority of the arguments here come with the "Feat Comparison." Feats aren't created equal (indeed, the spread of power is quite large), and people will quibble about the power level of individual feats.

Yes, and hopefully at some point the term will be defined so that it can actually be used in the context that it is trying to be used in.

 

[Nail]

I realize that some may not be happy with my trying to cut through the smoke screens....

Uhm...... :\

I thought this thread had the best chance of any to have a high fact to snarkiness ratio. Can we keep it that way? Please?

 

[Nail]

...but the sorcerer can use Psychic Reformation using Limited Wish in the same manner he could duplicate clerical or other prohibited spell of 4th level or less.

At higher XP cost, right?

In our high level campaign, our Psi 16 uses the feat (Psychic reformation) between meetings almost every single time, then makes up the XP since his PC is lower level than the rest. In effect, it's virtually free for him, and it allows him to customize his PC to the adventure.....something that supposedly only Wizards (not sorcerers, certainly) could do.


As an aside, and not meant as a critique of Psions: I'm beginning to think that XP cost are just bogus.....a "non-cost". Gold Piece costs are far more limiting. (You can't get more gold by being lower level than the encounter.)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Scion:

Frankly, though I do agree with a few of the points you are trying to make, I also agree with many of the others that it would be better to change your tone.

I am fairly sure that the people here are trying to be unbiased and not hide things in a conspiracy as you suggest. Now, do I think Karinsdad is biased? Absolutely. Do I disagree with him on several important points? Sure. But he is trying his best to be unbiased.

Ultimately, I feel that there are several weights that are too high or too low for both classes, some advantages that should be there that aren't, and some that shouldn't be there that are. When I make all my modifications, I find the Psion coming out 6 points ahead. Seems about right to me--I would be astonished if the Psion did not come out on top of the Sorcerer--I consider the Sorcerer to be significantly weak compared to every other core caster (Wizard, Cleric, Druid), so why not Psion too?

 

[Jack Simth]

Yes, and hopefully at some point the term will be defined so that it can actually be used in the context that it is trying to be used in.

How does it matter? As long as whoever is looking at the list picks the same power level feat for each individual item, it doesn't matter much that individuals are picking different power levels on the feat - if that's all that changes between two individuals (e.g., same play-style, same tricks, same campaign planning, et cetera), the most you'll get is a universal slide, up or down, relative to each other - e.g., the one that compared to Toughness slides everything up by one point, while the one that compared to ManyShot might slide the value down a notch or two... but, while both come up with different totals, they will liekly come out with something close to the same ratio between the two up for comparison.

 

[NexH]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. These abillities are not trivial.

Overchannel is huge. No core spellcasting class cannot cast higher than their level.

Resolving normal attacks as touch attacks is pretty big. It throws 5 to 30 points of AC out the door (no armor bonuses, no shield bonuses, no natural armor bonuses) in most circumstances depending on situation.

It makes the Psion BAB much greater than Fighter, Barbarians, Rangers or Paladins. It's like a mini-True Strike that can be used at least once in combat and often more.

Ditto for Speed of Thought. Extra movement is very helpful in combat.

And Expanded Knowledge lets Psions get powers from a totally different class. That's pretty big too. Out of the core spell casting classes (of which there are 4 major and 3 minor), only Clerics can do this and they do not get the entire selection of another classes spells, only ones which make it to a given domain list and only for domain lists of their deity.

These feats are one of the things that make Psions stronger than many other classes.

Without them, I suspect many players would not even consider playing a Psion.

Sorry for not explaining why I gave this a 1 previously.
The thing is that many of these feats have drawbacks (most of the time you have expend your psionic focus), and/or they aren't that powerful (resolving an attack as a touch attack is not very useful for most psions, I think)

Overchannel is nice. However, the only time I can see it being too powerful is with astral constructs.

Other thing I have taken into account (although maybe this should be somewhere else) is the fact that there are many (5) feats that are specifically designed to counter psionics, while in core rules there aren't similar feats against magic users.

I'm talking about the big ticket items which are stronger than many of the minor Epic spells.

For example, Mind Seed (create more of yourself), Genesis (create your own demiplane), and Mind Switch True (immortality).

This even includes such things as Psychic Reformation (which is only 4th level).

You are effectively changing reality with this power. Your character no longer knows x, y, and z skills, powers, and feats, they now know a, b, and c.

Changing reality is significant.

Psions have some (broken) powers that are merely balanced by XP. They have a lot more XP balanced powers to choose from than Sorcerers have XP balanced spells.

And, Sorcerers tend to get XP spells that allow them to cast other lower level spells or do other things which although major, are not reality altering for the most part. They cannot get rid of their low level feats and swap them for more useful ones for higher level for example.

Whenever the "bigger, badder, better" elements show up in a game, I tend to take note.

First I must say I really dislike Psychic Reformation. However, a sorcerer can also benefit from it, since it isn't personal.

Mind seed: if you manifest this power you are probably evil, so you may be creating a future enemy. Also, the combination of having a saving throw to negate, and costing 3000 xp can hurt a lot. In the case you somehow manage to keep this clone at your control, he is 8 levels lower than you, so he is not going to be very helpful on most situations.

Genesis: nice power for roleplaying purposes, but I fail to see how can it break the game.

Mind switch, true: Very nice if you are a DM, since it allows you to make very interesting foes.
For a player this is not nearly as good: first, death by old age hardly happens in most games (none IME, even when IMC there is a lot of downtime). Also, not only does it cost 10.000 xp; if dying from old age is an issue, then you will probably have to deal with level loss.
Given that there are low LA races that grant immortality from the begining, I don't see how can this power be considered broken, or even powerful.

 

[helium3]

My very scientific and logical analysis of all the "are psionics balanced" threads.

 

[irdeggman]

2 S12: There are five powers for which Psions have to pay XP whereas Sorcerers do not have to pay XP for the nearly equivalent spell.

3 P22: Psions get more "mega-powers" than Sorcerers get "mega-spells". In other words, powers or spells which are extremely powerful and cost XP because of it, typically 8th or 9th level.

How can this be an advantage for both classes and even then a greater advantage for psions?