The Big Weighed Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Scion]

For this I will be assuming that 3 means a feat equivalent to the human bonus feat. As in, it can be used for anything that you meet prereqs for.

1 S1: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. Psions are proficient with 6 simple weapons.

The psion choices for weapons arent too bad, but being able to use any simple weapon has advantages in certain situations. Although these are primarily flavor choices there are some which are not such as being able to use a sling or a javalin, or even a longspear for reach (psions are not proficient in a reach weapon).

As such, I would give it a 2. Although admitidly almost exclusively because of the reach weapon.

It isnt worth a full feat because it isnt incredibly useful and if a feat was to be spent it would likely be for a martial weapon or exotic.

5 S2: Sorcerers are not limited to a single discipline of spells. Psions are limited to a single discipline of powers.

This one is really hard to rate. Many of the powers that people consider the 'best' (or must haves as spells) are in the discipline specific lists and so must be bought with feats.

Given that it would normally take more than one feat to make up for this loss I would also rate this as a 5.

2 S3: Sorcerers have zeroth level spells. Psions do not get zeroth level powers (although some equivalent powers are first level for Psions).

Again a tough call. There are feats which give a couple 0th levels in a day, but without the sorcs ability to choose what they are or how many times to cast each. Which means that technically it should be worth a full feat.

Given that some of the 0th level spells are useful in a lot of little ways (acid splash can destroy certain small objects, such as a piece of paper) or in some big ways (detect magic? wow..) I am torn between 2 or 3.

But given the existance of touch of fatigue and detect magic I'll make it a 3.

2 S4: Sorcerers can swap out lower level spells as they go up levels. Psions have to use the Psychic Reformation power to do this.

No idea, I'll go with karinsdad on this one with him saying it isnt worth a full feat. it is a nice option, although generally I pick my spell choices well enough that it usually doesnt come into play.

4 S5: Spell / Powers Per Day: Of first and higher level spells, Sorcerers tend to be able to cast more at first level unless the Psions race gives him bonus PP. Psions tend to be able to manifest more (same as Sorcerer level) powers at levels two through seven. Sorcerers then tend to take over at level eight. In other words, Sorcerers can often cast four first level spells at first level whereas first level Psions can typically only manifest 3 first level powers (although, this can be more if the Psion has a 17 Int or a race that gives bonus PP or he takes a feat that gives him bonus PP). Sorcerers have more staying power. When Psions run out of PP, Sorcerers tend to still have spells left over, even if they are lower level spells.

Definately worth more than a feat. We'll go for a 4 here though sure.

3 S6: 79% of psionic powers (including all psionic powers, not just Psion powers) have a range of Close or less (I'm not going to bother to re-do the percentage for just Psion powers). Sorcerers average a higher percentage of Medium and longer spells.

What is the worth of being able to use spells 4 to 8 times as far in general?

Especially when it means being able to cast spells on party members and act as a force multiplier.

There is a feat that makes spells go further than normal, but it doesnt work on personal or touch range and it raises the spell level by 1. So essentially the sorc gets this for free all over the place comparatively, but without the level cost.

3

3 S7: Sorcerers get more spells to choose from ~375 whereas Psions are limited to fewer powers, ~277.

While the number is actually 162 for psions plus an average of 16 more powers for the discipline (which means that there are about 80 powers that the psion does not have direct access to without spending a feat, and even then some cannot be gained).

More spells means more combinations which generally leads to more overall power through synergies. Being able to easily choose from over double the choices of the psion is pretty major.

It is true that the psion may spend a feat in order to gain an extra power, potentially even from the psychic warrior list, but this comes at the cost of the feat and it is very limited in scope (you have to be a high enough manifestor and it is only one extra power).

Still though, even with that choosing between 'worth a feat' and 'worth more than a feat' is a tough call. Assuming that the situation was different and the sorc and the psion had the same number of choices how many feats would it take to double the sorcs choices.. maybe by allowing them some amount of the cleric spells to choose from.

I'll go with a 4, mainly just from the sheer difference in numbers. (especially if you go beyond the core, but as that would start making it 3x or maybe even more it'd probably make this a 5, so we'll stick with 4 for the core).

4 S8: Sorcerer can spontaneously put multiple Metamagic feats on spells. Psions can only put one metapsionics on a power unless they have the Psicrystal Containment feat which allows for a second one.

4 sounds good. Not having to spend the feat and worry about making a check and being able to do more than one feat on the spell.. I dont know if this would also fall under the category with the dc boosting feats and SR boosting feats.. the psion can only use one at a time, and even that takes feats to do with regularity.

4 S9: Sorcerers do not need a focus in order to Metamagic a spell. Psions have to have their focus available to Metapsionic a power. Note: I'm including the fact that Metamagic on a Sorcerer spell takes a full round action in this merit due to the fact that this is not as much a downside as reacquiring a focus. It is losing a move action versus losing a full round action and more (without using psionic feats).

This response falls under the previous one as well, they seem very similar. 4 is all right.

4 S10: Sorcerers have some bread and butter spells that are considerably more powerful than the Psionic equivalents and easier to acquire when accessible. Examples include Fly, Invisibility, and Greater Invisibility.

The psion doesnt have an equivalent to invis or greater invis and fly is a discipline only power (no, cloud mind is not a psionic equivalent to invis, although it may have been intended that way.. the targeted nature and save make it significantly different.. I bet invis would be taken a lot less if everyone got a save to break through the illusion, and that version would still be more effective in some ways than cloud mind).

'bread and butter' spells is a fairly ambiguous term. I am not sure what this means.. would it include things like magic missile? polymorph?

Since it is fairly ambiguous I'll just stick with the 4 that was given earlier.

4 S11: Sorcerers do not have a focus. Psions do not need to use their focus, but many of the good psionic feats require either using it up or having it available. Since getting it back is a full round action (that may or may not work), either Psionic Meditation (which has a minimum Wisdom of 13) or Psicrystal Containment (which requires 2 feats) or not using feats which use it up is basically required.

Focus is a tough issue and I would rate not needing focus for most/all of the spell enhancements and abilities as a 5 but only because 5 is the highest rank given. Otherwise I'd give it a 10 on this scale as a balancing factor.

Even with psicrystal and psicyrstal containment you are still in a hurting position for focus. In order to refresh each you need a full round action. If you spend another feat to regain as a move equivalent then you might have aoo problems and might have the issue of not regaining it.. and then needing a full round action to try to get both back. So the two other feats only allow for one extra focus a combat.

Focus is just plain huge and far reaching. It is very difficult to use mulitple feats that require focus in a short period of time.. and if you have a feat which requires retaining focus it becomes even more problematic.

Since 5 is the highest I'll give it a 5. It touches on every part of a psions life. They have to choose whether or not to even use focus for anything. If they choose not to then there go any feats or abilities which require it, limiting choices by a great deal. If they choose to use focus then they likely need 3 more feats just to get close to it being reliable enough to depend upon and you cannot even do that until mid levels.

2 S12: There are five powers for which Psions have to pay XP whereas Sorcerers do not have to pay XP for the nearly equivalent spell.

If I had to choose between paying gold or exp for a spell (especially if it is for a focus) then I would go for gold every time.

To me having the exp cost for the powers basically takes those powers off of the available choices except under extreme circumstances which limits power choices even further.

Taking contingency off of the table 'hurts'.

I'll leave this at a 2 for now.. but it is a very shaky 2.

2 S13: Sorcerers get access to Shadow Conjuration spells which give them access to a wide variety of lesser powered conjuration effects.

A single spell which allows for the use of a whole school within certain level limits? This is practically a class feature for sorcs! It is ultimate flexibility.

3 or 4 here, but we'll go with 3.

2 S14: Sorcerers get access to Shadow Evocation spells which give them access to a wide variety of lesser powered evocation effects.

Similar to the above but I dont think this is as strong of a school generally.
So 2 or 3, we'll go with 3 (assuming 3.5 for the above and 2.5 for this one).

2 S15: The Sorcerers primary ability score of Charisma adds to a wider variety of skills and feats. For example, the Leadership feat.

Eh. Cha skills are incredibly powerful and can alter the whole game. Int gives skill points which could give points cross classed into the same skills for the psion. I would put them under equal.
0

2 S16: Sorcerers can use spells out of the Illusion school of magic. Psions do not really have illusions.

Illusions are extremely powerful. They can do some simply incredible things that change whole aspects of the game.. although there are times when they are useless as well.

Mirror image is fun, color spray is awesomely incredible, illusary wall can make for great traps.. but then so can phantom trap.

Given the sheer versitility of the school and the complaint that sorcs have a hard time with versitility this would again be pretty powerful.

3 with a leaning towards 4.

2 S17: Some summoned creatures give Sorcerers the ability to have spells cast which he himself normally cannot cast. Very few Astral Construct abilities are this way.

The higher up you go in the summonings the more versitile the different abilities become.. until you are summoning guys who have whole arrays of spell likes at their disposal.

4 with a leaning towards 5

3 S18: Sorcerers have more spells which are ally friendly which boosts the power or flexibility of an entire party of PCs. Psions have more individual target or self only powers.

Such as haste, slow, blink, heroism (and greater.. wow), etc. They can be a force multiplier. As in, the more pcs you have the bigger boost they are giving overall. Haste is pretty high up there, if you have a couple fighter types they have just gotten a pretty hefty boost.

With the number and ability of these spells I would go for a 4. I dont know of any core feat that boosts your whole party, and certainly no where near the same degree.

2 P1: Psions get a psionic feat at first level where they can get a Psicrystal or some other feat. Sorcerers get a Familiar at first level. They have no chose of an extra feat.

Bonus feat for the psion (psionic, metapsionic, or psionic item creation) vs getting the familiar automatically.

This comes down to just how useful one finds the familiar I suppose, but another way to look at it is what if the psion gets a psicrystal.. then they both have effectively the same thing. However, the psion has the advantage, he doesnt have to pick the psicrystal, he could pick something else instead.

So, is a familiar worth a feat or not?

I would give this a 1. This is because I rate the bonus psionic feat as a 2 (it is worth less than a full feat because of the restrictions) and I do give some value to the familiar (not a full feat value of course) but the psion gets the advantage.

3 P2: Wearing Armor does not have a failure chance for Psions.

True, but they also have a problem with armor check penalties so they are still penalized by wearing armors.. especially the heavier ones.

The sorc could also pick spells, of which there are a decent number and some good ones, that have no somatic component and have the same thing.

Definately good, full feat worthy? Perhaps.

We'll leave it as a 3 for now.

2 P3: Although Psions get the same base skill points as Sorcerers, their primary ability score is Int, so they tend to average more skill points.

By your count it cancels out with the earlier, I would've just listed them as even. ::shrugs::

0

2 P4: Psions have 7 to 9 (depending on discipline) Class skills available plus they get all of the Knowledge skills as class skills. Sorcerers have 6 Class skills available.

So it'd be ok to spend a feat to gain about 3 skills (although not of the characters choice) under their class skill section. That definately sounds like a weak feat to me. A weak 2 or strong 1, we'll go with 2.

(I allow a few feats in my games.. 1 feat to get one skill as a class skill and gain +2 with it, 1 feat to gain 2 skills as class skills and gain +1 on each, or 1 feat to gain 5 skills as class skills with no benefit)

3 P5: Psions gain new level powers on odd levels, starting at level 3. Sorcerers gain new level spells on even levels, starting at level 4.

Yeah, I have never been able to figure out a decent reason why the sorc is delayed.

3 or 4 sounds good, we'll go with 3 for now.

4 P6: Powers / Spell Known: Of first level powers and higher, Psions have the option of getting more of the highest level of each level of powers than Sorcerers have of getting each level of spells (e.g. at level 6, psions can have 5 4 4, Sorcerers have 4 2 1). This is to the Psions advantage at all levels, including 20th level at 544443336 versus 554443333.

This looks like it will wash with the sorc ability earlier which sounds about right.

4

3 P7: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 5 (note: I split these out for the same reason as splitting out range scaling and duration scaling for Sorcerers, they are different and unique advantages).

3 P8: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 10.

3 P9: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 15.

2 P10: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 20.

I think it would rather be a class feature worth 5 points that they gain a bonus feat at 1st and every 5th level thereafter but from a limited list.

But in an effort to keep as close as possible I would list each as a 2. This is because they are more limited than normal feats.

3 P11: Augmented Psion powers tend to increase the DC for each 2 points put in. Sorcerer spells have the same DC as always. Note: I called this out as a different merit than P15 due to it being an extra augmentation that many powers have in addition to other augmentations. In other words, the Psion gets the equivalent of Heighten Spell feat for many of his powers without taking such a feat.

To go along with this we would need a new sorc item:
S19: Able to take heighten spell which boosts the actual spell level and boosts dc. He gets to choose which spells he will give this benefit to.

Considering the number of powers which do this sort of thing I'll give it a 2.
For the sorc version I consider this a pretty minor addition and it will recieve a 1.

4 P12: Psion powers more than get the equivalent of the Still Spell feat for all powers. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers.

This was already accounted for with the armor check penalty, at least mostly. Because it might effect other parts of the game potentially I'll give it a 1.

3 P13: Psion powers get most of and more than the equivalent advantages of the Silent Spell feat. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers. Psions do need to concentrate to minimize Displays, but even with that, this is still advantage Psion since Sorcerers can only take Still Spell feat and use up a higher slot. The do not get the option of silencing their spells with a Concentration roll.

Pretty weak feat overall. But then so are most of these feats which take away one of the components and up the spell by a level. I blame the full level incremental nature.

Silent rods are incredibly cheap because of this.

Given that, I'd say it is a 2 at best.

3 P14: Psion powers get more than the equivalent of the Eschew Materials feat. Many Sorcerer spells have material components that are worth more than 1 GP.

'many' is just as vague now as it was before, I would still prefer this to be clarified in some way ;/

I checked out a few spells with component costs above 1gp:
Identify: The spell takes a 100gp pearl which the power does not.. but then the spell is level 1 and the power is level 2
psionic lock doesnt require the 25gp that the arcane version does, but then one is able to pass through the arcane version while leaving the spell there (can be a big benefit).
stoneskin costs 250gp and gives 10/adamantine DR (creature touched) while inertial barrier (takes a feat for most psions and is personal only) gives 5/- and half damage from falling.
Scry takes a focus worth varying amounts, but at least 1kgp for sorcs, remote view (seer only power) takes 20exp each time.

That is where I stopped looking. If I have missed any obvious ones feel free to put them up but overall it looks like the 'but better' comment is pretty out of line. There are tradeoffs for each beyond simply ignoring the cost. Higher level required, larger number benefit, easier passage, exp cost.

Plus, with a couple of cheap spell component pouches the sorc pretty much never has to worry about anything that is covered by the feat anyway. It is a nicely flavorful feat but with almost no game impact unless you run around captured often.

I'll give it a 1 for those situations where the sorc would be without his spell component pouch.

3 P15: Special Augmentation: Psion powers often are the base line equivalent of a Sorcerer’s spell, but then augment into a power that is more powerful than the baseline spell. I include in this most special augmentations including Quickening the power.

Sounds good. Definately keeps the power choices interesting. Grab something now which will be better later or grab something that is better now. After all, not all augmentations are any good, and some powers start off good for the level but then drop off to uselessness quickly.

3

4 P16: Psions can gain special abilities via feats that can often be used the vast majority of the time (some are limited to reacquiring the focus) which Sorcerers cannot get without taking a spell (which have shorter durations) or taking a level in a different class, but most often, not at all. These include Expanded Knowledge, Overchannel, Psionic Body, Psionic Dodge, resolving normal attacks as touch attacks via Unavoidable Strike, Fell Shot, or Deep Impact, Speed of Thought, and Up the Walls. I lumped most of the Psionic special feat abilities into this one merit because the extra feats were called out above (see P7 through P10) in individual merits and some of these abilities cannot be used simultaneously. Another way of looking at this is that Psions get the Wild Talent feat for free.

I went over this above. Considering that most of these feats can be gotten by anyone and it is merely a class/race feature which makes it easier to get them initially and several of the feats listed are pretty worthless I'll give this a 2.

If we brought in complete arcane and/or complete divine this would suddenly drop down to a 0 or lower.

4 P17: Psionic Energy powers are superior to Sorcerer Energy spells. The Psion can change the energy type, or choose a different energy type for a different saving throw type (note: the difference in damage is handled in E5). Sorcerers cannot do this at all in core rules (and need magic items or feats to do it outside of core rules).

I went over this earlier as well. Especially the part where sorcs can do it, and do it even better, within the core rules.

But, it is a great beanie. Is it worth a feat or more than a feat. I'll go with 4, mainly because there arent any direct feats to do something similar to make direct damage dealing spells more useful at higher levels.

1 P18: Psions can get Greater Psionic Penetration for a +8 bonus and they can even get it at first level.

0.

Given the choice between having a constant +4 or having to give up other options in order for a +8 I'll go for the +4.

In fact, I see the spell penetration feats to be a 1 in the 'sorcs' favor with this being a 0.

3 P19: Psions have direct "action gain powers" which Sorcerers rarely have access to. Examples of these include Quicken Power, Schism (4th), Temporal Acceleration (6th), and Fission (7th). Effectively what they do is give the psion more actions per combat than his opponents. Sorcerers ability to do this directly tends to be limited to Time Stop (which is a 9th level spell).

Considering the cost of these, which was also gone over earlier, I'll call this a 2.

If the psion quickens then he has given up using other metapsionic feats for the round generally and needing to use other feats to get the focus back vs the sorcs ability to simply put a metamagic onto his spell and get a greater effect. Schism sucks, that -6 manifestor level hit is rough. Temporal acceleration costs a lot and gives penalties to the psion. Fission is interesting in that it is a good way to die.. your copy doesnt have any of your equipment and so is an achilles heel waiting to happen.

2 P20: Psions have powers to directly heal themselves. Sorcerers have to rely upon indirect effects like polymorph or summoning creatures that can heal at very high level.

Went over this before. Too inefficient.

while it is an option it is generally better to not do it that way.. plus the sorc has a few different ways to do it, although not as directly. The sorc can even use vampiric touch.

0.

5 P21: Psions can manifest powers at their highest manifester level every single round until they run too low on points. This ranges from about 3 highest PP powers at level one to at most 22 to 27 (campaign dependent) at level 20. Sorcerers tend to be limited to 4 to 6 of their highest level spell until they get to level 20 where they can get as high as 7.

Sure. Definately a nice option.. although it hurts in other areas.

But then you only gave the sorc advantage a 4 for being able to use a whole lot more equivalent pp's.. It doesnt seem fair to give that a 4 and give this a 5.

4.

3 P22: Psions get more "mega-powers" than Sorcerers get "mega-spells". In other words, powers or spells which are extremely powerful and cost XP because of it, typically 8th or 9th level.

Unproven and not shown.

0.

2 P23: Astral Constucts are most levels are better combat creatures than Summoned creatures. Additionally, a Psion only needs a single power to access a wide variety of power and utility constructs. Sorcerers are limited in what they can get and need multiple Summoning spells to get creatures of all types of levels.

Better is still ambiguous. The summons have their areas where they are better than the constructs and vice versa.

Given that it takes the sorc more slots I'll give this a 2.

E5: Damage Scaling: Sorcerer spells scale for typically an extra D6 for up to 5 levels, then stop. Psion powers must be augmented to scale, however, Psions can augment them beyond any damage cap. Plus, Psion powers often do more damage in the first place. For example: 5D6+5 versus 5D6 at 5th level and 5D6+5 un-augmented versus 6D6 at 6th is greater damage, it is only less un-augmented damage at levels 7 through 10. Or, 5D10 versus 5D6. The Psion does more un-augmented damage at levels 5 through 7, basically equal at 8, less at 9 and 10. But, he tends to do more augmented damage at all levels. I could have put this into one merit for Sorcerers and a different merit for Psions, but I felt it was a wash.

This one is pretty tough. But overall I feel that psions are better blasters. Choosing between free scaling (gives more damage later on, especially with certain combos) or energy choice (which is where the +/- comes from) is a difficult one.

Fire resistance is pretty common though, so that knocks down some of the bonus.. high fort saves are also pretty common.

But calling them overall even is ok for now.

E8: There is a not much of a selection of core Prestige Classes for Sorcerers and Psionic Prestige Classes are for Psions. Illithid Slayer is slightly more advantageous than Eldritch Knight, but also limited on enemy selection; Cerebremancer can be better than Mystic Theurge (if the arcane class is Wizard), Thrallherd is about equal to Red Wizard (even giving up manifester levels); Psion Uncarnate is somewhat ok, but Elocater and Metamind are weak. Arch Mage is not much help for a Sorcerer and Loremaster is hard to qualify for. The equivalent PrCs tend to be slightly better for the Psion, but giving up manifester levels makes many of them flavor selections at best. Neither class has real good PrCs to pick from.

I feel that the sorc is way better off on the power level of the prcs he has access to vs the psion. Especially with the archmage factored in.

Given that, I'd give it a 1 in the sorcs favor. But a 1 on the low side because of the high level that is required to do it.

Now for extras:
S20: Force effects. in general the sorc has a pretty good time with force. He has magic missile and wall of force and other such effects. Force tends to be much better than energy abilities and magic missile is powerful for its level. Even a 10th level sorc might use magic missiles as a useful combat tactic, even with higher level slots available.. twinned, empowered magic missiles are fun as well..lol

I'd give it either a 1 or a 2.. strong 1 or weak 2.

I'll go for 1.

S21:
The sorc gets his spells without the auditory component (lots of humming which can be loud or quiet, but this has actual defined rules associated with it unlike verbal.. strong is highly ambiguous) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the material component (subject or area is covered in goo) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the mental component (chiming in peoples minds) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the olfactory component (whats that smell?) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the visual component (glowing eyes and rainbow flashes? uh oh!) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.

I really dont feel like listing these all seperately. For the whole bundle I'll give them a 2.

I'll just list a few more though:
Psion: psicrystal tends to be mechanically stronger than the familiar without any outside powers tossed in
Sorc: alter self is an incredible powerhouse of ability, especially when combined with the familiar
Psion: With proper power picks and timing the psion can have some very impressive stats in AC, hp, and saves for a limited time.. but it takes most of their resources to do
Sorc: Better nova potential from various sources and he has the resources to expend to make it happen

Plus there are a lot of little things.

I guess that brings my totals up to: Sorc 60, Psion 42

And of course this varies wildly depending on which individual numbers one chooses and how big of an impact they think it will have.

My numbers are basicaly the opposite of karinsdads, for whatever that means.

In my personal experience sorcs are on the low end of the power level of the primary casters. Their limitations hurt a lot while the benefits do not make up for them. I feel that psions are a much more balanced class (fewer over the top abilities and fewer under the bow abilities) overall and much more flavorful.

For the numbers above I feel that it is just too difficult to fit certain balance points into the number system, too many varying degrees.

Both psions and sorcs have some major advantages and some major weaknesses. Which is 'better' overall depends entirely upon which spells and powers you choose and what style of character you are playing and which suppliments are being used to maximize those choices.

 

[irdeggman]

As an aside, and not meant as a critique of Psions: I'm beginning to think that XP cost are just bogus.....a "non-cost". Gold Piece costs are far more limiting. (You can't get more gold by being lower level than the encounter.)

Ahh but you can make gold without any risk. You can sell your spellcasting services, you can use profession skill, while it takes exp to create a magic (or psionic) item it gives huge paybacks in gp. And if your psion is using Psychic Reformation between meetings almost every single time, then there is a measurable amount of time between adventures that a sorcerer (or a psion for that matter) could use to make money.

In order to gain any exp you have to risk being killed (always possible - if it is not then you shouldn't be getting any exp in the first place.)

 

[irdeggman]

For example, Mind Seed (create more of yourself), Genesis (create your own demiplane), and Mind Switch True (immortality).

Genesis is a shaper only power no other discipline can get since it is a 9th level power so by that fact it more limiting.

Mind Switch, True is a 9th level telepath only power so the same restriction applies.


So of these three a psion can have at most 2 of them.

 

[Glyfair]

Genesis is a shaper only power no other discipline can get since it is a 9th level power so by that fact it more limiting.

Mind Switch, True is a 9th level telepath only power so the same restriction applies.


So of these three a psion can have at most 2 of them.

Unless, of course, they take the Expanded Knowledge (admittedly, this limits these two to at best Epic level characters).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unless, of course, they take the Expanded Knowledge (admittedly, this limits these two to at best Epic level characters).

The rules laid down for the comparison were Core Rules + XPH only. A Psion cannot use Expanded Knowledge to gain a 9th level power without exceeding those boundaries.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Mind seed: if you manifest this power you are probably evil, so you may be creating a future enemy. Also, the combination of having a saving throw to negate, and costing 3000 xp can hurt a lot. In the case you somehow manage to keep this clone at your control, he is 8 levels lower than you, so he is not going to be very helpful on most situations.

One of the things about saving throws is that there are ways around them.

For example, make your opponent unconscious first (which with non-lethal damage is not too hard to do).

Then, manifest power on him. No save.

In fact, I would not pick a high level foe. I would pick a low level foe with high Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution so that my Clone would be more physically capable.


I agree that 8 levels lower is fairly weak. But, it also means that the "clone" is susceptible to your mind powers as well if necessary.

But, if I were an evil high level Psion who wanted to rule some major portion of the world (assuming that is my goal), most of my clones would want that too. So, you give them each a large town or city to try to infiltrate, your supply them with assistance, and you make sure they do not get too powerful. Just powerful enough to set up a mental "spy / infiltration network".

They are not your slaves, but they would be very receptive to having the same goals.

Genesis: nice power for roleplaying purposes, but I fail to see how can it break the game.

There is an epic spell that creates an island. This creates a demiplane. Raise Island costs 360,000 GP to develop the spell and costs 2000 XP to cast. Genesis sounds more potent than Raise Island to me

Plus, you can retreat to it and very few foes can find you.

As a base of operations, it is pretty sweet and cheap for 1000 XP.

Mind switch, true: Very nice if you are a DM, since it allows you to make very interesting foes.
For a player this is not nearly as good: first, death by old age hardly happens in most games (none IME, even when IMC there is a lot of downtime). Also, not only does it cost 10.000 xp; if dying from old age is an issue, then you will probably have to deal with level loss.
Given that there are low LA races that grant immortality from the begining, I don't see how can this power be considered broken, or even powerful.

Well WotC thinks it is powerful, or they would not have given it such a high XP cost (10,000).

Most races do not get immortality. It is something which from a player point of view, is no big deal. From a character point of view, it is colossal. Probably one of the biggest powers possible and solidly into the high Epic level.

 

[Scion]

For example, make your opponent unconscious first (which with non-lethal damage is not too hard to do).

Then, manifest power on him. No save.

Being unconscious does not negate being able to make saving throws. Although I do believe you are automatically considered 'willing' for spells that only work on willing targets.

 

[KarinsDad]

Went over this before. Too inefficient.

while it is an option it is generally better to not do it that way.. plus the sorc has a few different ways to do it, although not as directly. The sorc can even use vampiric touch.

0.
[/b]

Well, if you think healing is no big deal. Personally, I like my PCs to be self sufficient. If the Cleric is down, a Psion that cannot heal herself has to use up costly potions.


Vampiric Touch versus Empathic Transfer, Hostile? Even if they make the save, Empathic Transfer, Hostile usually does more damage AND it heals real points of damage. It also is a 3rd level power, but it does require the proper Discipline or a feat.

Vampiric Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous/1 hour; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You must succeed on a melee touch attack. Your touch deals 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 10d6). You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal. However, you can’t gain more than the subject’s current hit points +10, which is enough to kill the subject. The temporary hit points disappear 1 hour later.


Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 3, psychic warrior 3
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5
You transfer your hurt to another. When you manifest this power and then make a successful touch attack, you can transfer 50 points of damage (or less, if you choose) from yourself to the touched creature. You immediately regain hit points equal to the amount of damage you transfer.
You cannot use this power to gain hit points in excess of your full normal total. The transferred damage is empathic in nature, so powers and abilities the subject may have such as damage reduction and regeneration do not lessen or change this damage.
The damage transferred by this power has no type, so even if the subject has immunity to the type of damage you originally took, the transfer occurs normally and deals hit point damage to the subject.
Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.
1. For every additional power point you spend, you can transfer an additional 10 points of damage (maximum 90 points per manifestation).
2. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power affects all creatures in a 20-foot-radius spread centered on you.

Temporary hit points versus real ones? No real comparison.

More damage? No real comparison.

Affecting all creatures in a 20 foot radius for 9 PP?

Real good healing and damage. Especially if your Psion can pump up his AC and wade into a group of foes.

Body Adjustment
Psychometabolism (Healing)
Level: Psion/wilder 3, psychic warrior 2
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: Psion/wilder 5, psychic warrior 3
You take control of your body’s healing process, curing yourself of 1d12 points of damage. As usual, when regular damage is healed, an equal amount of nonlethal damage is also healed.
Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power heals an additional 1d12 points of damage.

This can actually be more potent than it looks. For example, at various levels, the average amount of healing Non-Empowered versus Empowered and the average Psion hit points at Con 10, 12, 14, and 16 are:

5    6.5         14  19  24  29
7   13    9.75   19  26  33  40
9   19.5  19.5   24  33  42  51
11  26    29.25  29  40  51  62
13  32.5  39     34  47  60  73
15  39    48.75  39  54  69  84
17  45.5  58.5   44  61  78  95
19  52    68.25  49  68  87  106

This is not weak. Two full PP manifestations typically gets most Psions up near full hit points once you get to 11th level. You give up PP for HP. A fair trade.

But, there is a way to make it even more powerful. I seriously considered using my 5th level Psion feat to take Body Adjustment via the Psychic Warrior path with Expand Knowledge. This would have resulted in an additional D12 each time I manifested it. Doing that, it becomes:

3    6.5
5   13    9.75     14  19  24  29
7   19.5  19.5     19  26  33  40
9   26    29.25    24  33  42  51
11  32.5  39       29  40  51  62
13  39    48.75    34  47  60  73
15  45.5  58.5     39  54  69  84
17  52    68.25    44  61  78  95
19  58.5  78       49  68  87  106

Granted, not every Psion will do this. Mine didn't, but it was an option.

If you want fair self healing, it costs you a power.

Better self healing costs you either a feat (Expanded Knowledge path does not cost a power, it gains a power), or a power and a feat (Empower) that you can re-use with other powers.

Real good self healing costs you two feats, one of which you can use for other powers.


Course, Overchannel and Talented and PsiCrystal and Psicrystal Affiinity and Expanded Knowledge and Maximize Power gains about the greatest number of HP. But, I don't know of anyone who wants it that badly.


The thing about the Expanded Knowledge path is that it's cheap and it can be done at level 5 and it doesn't use up the psionic focus like Empowered does. Out of the 12 feats that Psions get between 1st and 20th level, they can spend one of them to get self healing. That's cheap. I know a lot of Fighters and Barbarians and Rogues would would gladly give up a feat to be able to heal themselves.


I think 0 for this is very pro-Psion biased. Healing is very helpful in a party, even self healing. It spreads healing around in the group and gives the entire party more options.

PS. My psion took Body Adjustment and Empathic Transfer, just so that she could heal herself and her fellow teammates. It wasn't much, but it could more than stabilize a fellow PC.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Being unconscious does not negate being able to make saving throws. Although I do believe you are automatically considered 'willing' for spells that only work on willing targets.

Right.

Against an conscious creature, Charm Person (Will negates) grants a save, unless they voluntarily give up their save. Cure Light Wounds (Will half, harmless) doesn't grant a save, unless they choose to make one. Levitate (Target: one willing creature) only works if they allow it to, no save required.

Against an unconscious creature, Charm Person automatically allows a save - they can't elect to give it up while they're unconscious. Cure Light Wounds automatically disallows a save - they can't elect to make one. Levitate automatically works - they're considered a 'willing creature' while unconscious.

There's a difference between 'willing creature' and 'electing to give up one's Will save'. Mind Seed allows a Will save, and isn't harmless; an unconscious creature gets to attempt that save whether he would normally choose to or not.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Being unconscious does not negate being able to make saving throws. Although I do believe you are automatically considered 'willing' for spells that only work on willing targets.

Actually, I think you are automatically willing for spells listed as beneficial (i.e. harmless) like Cure Light Wounds, but not for willing target spells like Teleport.

I was going to look that up before I posted it and then forgot. Course, I cannot find an actual reference for it now anyway.


I hate when I post before looking up a questionable rule though.