The Big Weighed Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[KarinsDad]

Right.

Against an conscious creature, Charm Person (Will negates) grants a save, unless they voluntarily give up their save. Cure Light Wounds (Will half, harmless) doesn't grant a save, unless they choose to make one. Levitate (Target: one willing creature) only works if they allow it to, no save required.

Against an unconscious creature, Charm Person automatically allows a save - they can't elect to give it up while they're unconscious. Cure Light Wounds automatically disallows a save - they can't elect to make one. Levitate automatically works - they're considered a 'willing creature' while unconscious.

There's a difference between 'willing creature' and 'electing to give up one's Will save'. Mind Seed allows a Will save, and isn't harmless; an unconscious creature gets to attempt that save whether he would normally choose to or not.

Where's the rule on this?

I can find the (harmless) one, but not the willing creature one.

 

[Scion]

Well, if you think healing is no big deal. Personally, I like my PCs to be self sufficient. If the Cleric is down, a Psion that cannot heal herself has to use up costly potions.

Ahh.. making a strawman. Lets try to stick with what was said instead shall we.

The psions direct healing is horribly inefficient. Your charts show this even when using metapsionics (which uses focus so is hard to use during combat sometimes, which is the main point when you would need the emergency heal).

Polymorph is much better overall. It heals for a good amount, it has good utility use, and it can help the caster stay alive in an emergency situation.

Vampiric Touch versus Empathic Transfer, Hostile? Even if they make the save, Empathic Transfer, Hostile usually does more damage AND it heals real points of damage. It also is a 3rd level power, but it does require the proper Discipline or a feat.

You have to already be hurt for a pretty major amount to make hostile empathic transfer heal for much and you have to be in melee until much later on (at which point it is no longer equivalent to a 3rd level effect).

But I will agree that there isnt much of a comparison here, the two abilities do very different things.

If the psion (a d4 hd class) is relying on hostile empathic transfer for healing then he is in 'major' trouble.

At least with vampiric he could get benefit while being at full hp and there isnt even a save nor is it mind effecting.

Affecting all creatures in a 20 foot radius for 9 PP?

I guess you mean 11pp. The power starts at 5 and it takes 6 more pp in order to make it a 20' spread around himself.

Which means he again has to be in harms way and have a lot of damage on himself in order to make it do anything useful and it is still mind effecting and the save does not go up with this power as it augments so you are tossing off a DC 13+prime mod will save.

This is not weak. Two full PP manifestations typically gets most Psions up near full hit points once you get to 11th level. You give up PP for HP. A fair trade.

A huge amount of pp. Sure, it is possible, but it is highly inefficient. It is a 'trade' but saying it is fair seems a bit of a stretch. It is merely an option that some will go for and others will not.

If the sorc could pick up a spell which allowed him to burn spell slots to heal some amount it would also be a trade.. but, again, 'fair' would only come into play when the efficiency of such was taken into account.

Of course, with complete divine the sorc can gain a bunch of healing spells including the heal spell..

I think 0 for this is very pro-Psion biased. Healing is very helpful in a party, even self healing. It spreads healing around in the group and gives the entire party more options.

psions are better at it early on but sorcs are much better at it later on. That is close enough to a wash for me.

Or, going by your rprevious numbering system, you could break it up into two numbers:
P#: Psions can heal earlier than sorcs
S#: Sorcs can heal better than psions after a certain level

There you are. You may rate them as you will, I will rate them as equal.

PS. My psion took Body Adjustment and Empathic Transfer, just so that she could heal herself and her fellow teammates. It wasn't much, but it could more than stabilize a fellow PC.

I'd rather time hop them and let the party medic get to them a little later.. or poor a potion down their throats.. going the empathic transfer route, while it could be good in a tight pinch, could spell certain doom because suddenly you have a lot of damage on you.. or you have more damage, they are still low on hp, and you just gave up your turn.

Although, empathic transfer is great if you are a race that has fast healing. But we are talking core here so that is hard to manage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Polymorph is much better overall. It heals for a good amount, it has good utility use, and it can help the caster stay alive in an emergency situation.

Oh, you mean like Metamorphis?

A huge amount of pp. Sure, it is possible, but it is highly inefficient. It is a 'trade' but saying it is fair seems a bit of a stretch. It is merely an option that some will go for and others will not.

Precisely. It is an option that Psions have that Sorcerers do not have until much higher level.

Hence, advantage Psion.

If the sorc could pick up a spell which allowed him to burn spell slots to heal some amount it would also be a trade.. but, again, 'fair' would only come into play when the efficiency of such was taken into account.

At 5th level, Body Adjustment is 1 Power Point per 1.25 Hit Points. Pricey. But, there are times when you have extra PP (like before going to bed many nights) and it is better to be fully healed (or more healed) the next day than not.

At 19th level with no boosts whatsoever, it is 1 Power Point per 2.75 Hit Points (up to 1 PP per 4 hit points with 2 feats) just for Body Adjustment. But by then, it's smart to have True Metabolism as well. One for fast cures. One for slow large cures.

psions are better at it early on but sorcs are much better at it later on. That is close enough to a wash for me.

Or, going by your rprevious numbering system, you could break it up into two numbers:
P#: Psions can heal earlier than sorcs
S#: Sorcs can heal better than psions after a certain level

There you are. You may rate them as you will, I will rate them as equal.

You have to survive the lower levels to get to the higher levels.

It's equal to be able to "cure" at 5th level versus being able to Heal at 18th level? You have a very unusual sense of equal, especially if your PC is dead.

True Metabolism can heal up to 100 (or more at higher level) hit points per PP invested. That's hardly inefficient. Combined with Empathic Transfer, it allows a Psion to be a potent party healer (3 levels earlier than Summon Monster IX for a Sorcerer), probably better than most Druids unless they took a lot of Cure or Heal spells. Combined with Affinity Field, it is nearly the equivalent of slow working Mass Heal for 32 PP (10% of the 18th level Psions resources). At 18th level, that has the potential to be a lot more powerful than three 9th level Summoning spells for 3 Heal spells since you can affect everyone in a 20 foot radius.

Also, the Sorcerer has to cast for an entire round to get a Summoned Creature in that might be killed in a round or two. A Greater Dispel Magic or even a full round attack by a Fighter can negate that source of healing real fast.

And granted, the True Metabolism / Affinity Field combo is typically for out of combat. But, it is still more potent than Summon Monster IX overall.


Plus, we already have a Sorcerer advantage to allow high level Summon Monsters to heal Sorcerers.

You are negating this advantage and still giving points to it with the other advantage. Double dipping.


Finally, Summon Monsters healing is campaign dependent. Some DMs (or the players themselves) will only allow casting Summon spells of the same alignment. Others, same general bend (i.e. evil, neutral, or good) because of the fact that Summoning spells are of the alignment type of the creature summoned.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I like my psions to survive.

Body Adjustment, Claws of the Vampire, Empathic Transfer Hostile, Metamorphis, Greater Metamorphosis, True Metabolism


Lots of ways to cure and not just get temporary hit points. Plus, since Psions get more powers of 1st to 9th level than Sorcerers get spells, they can more afford a few powers to devote to healing.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd rather time hop them and let the party medic get to them a little later.. or poor a potion down their throats.. going the empathic transfer route, while it could be good in a tight pinch, could spell certain doom because suddenly you have a lot of damage on you.. or you have more damage, they are still low on hp, and you just gave up your turn.

Although, empathic transfer is great if you are a race that has fast healing. But we are talking core here so that is hard to manage.

Vigor is great with Empathic Transfer too.


And, Time Hop typically means that the downed Ally comes back quickly since he gets a Will Save every round.

 

[Shadowdweller]

2 P1: Psions get a psionic feat at first level where they can get a Psicrystal or some other feat. Sorcerers get a Familiar at first level. They have no chose of an extra feat.

While this is true, both Familiars AND Psicrystals are worth far more than your average feat if used correctly. Despite their high vulnerability.

For Instance:
- Alertness while within arm's reach.
- Bonus to a particular ability type (as determined by type of familiar/type of personality fragment)
- Skill use: Doubled attempts at all Knowledge skills, Spellcraft checks (for Identifying potions for instance), increased number of Spot/Listen checks (crystal/familiar still has to communicate)
- Doubled benefits of some spells, depending on how DM determines cheese. Example: Shapechange, Eyebite (Although any sorceror who takes this is an idiot)

2 S16: Sorcerers can use spells out of the Illusion school of magic. Psions do not really have illusions.

Second off: There ARE other categories than illusions in which the Psion Power list is generally lacking. Or at least vastly inferior.

- Wardings such as Alarm, Sepia Snake sigil, etc. (Not so great altogether)
- Battlefield Control spells, such as Grease, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, I think you are automatically willing for spells listed as beneficial (i.e. harmless) like Cure Light Wounds, but not for willing target spells like Teleport.

It's 'willing target' spells like Teleport that the rule is addressing. PHB p175. (Under the description of 'Target or Targets', under 'Aiming a Spell' in the Magic Overview chapter.)

Spells that grant a save are covered by the "voluntarily giving up a saving throw" rule on p177. Spells with a (harmless) descriptor note that "the targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires" (p177 again). Neither of these are related to "Some spells restrict you to willing targets only" (which describes spells like Teleport) - the first sentence of the paragraph that mentions unconscious creatures being willing.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's 'willing target' spells like Teleport that the rule is addressing. PHB p175. (Under the description of 'Target or Targets', under 'Aiming a Spell' in the Magic Overview chapter.)

Thanks Hyp!

 

[KarinsDad]

While this is true, both Familiars AND Psicrystals are worth far more than your average feat if used correctly. Despite their high vulnerability.

For Instance:
- Alertness while within arm's reach.
- Bonus to a particular ability type (as determined by type of familiar/type of personality fragment)
- Skill use: Doubled attempts at all Knowledge skills, Spellcraft checks (for Identifying potions for instance), increased number of Spot/Listen checks (crystal/familiar still has to communicate)
- Doubled benefits of some spells, depending on how DM determines cheese. Example: Shapechange, Eyebite (Although any sorceror who takes this is an idiot)

How worthwhile a familiar may be is dependent on the campaign and the player. One cannot make a blanket statement that it is worth more than a feat. In my game, nobody wants to take a Familiar and I have heard that a lot here on the boards as well.

But, regardless of campaign, having the choice to take one or not take one is a greater choice than getting one and not being able to replace it with a specialized feat.

Second off: There ARE other categories than illusions in which the Psion Power list is generally lacking. Or at least vastly inferior.

- Wardings such as Alarm, Sepia Snake sigil, etc. (Not so great altogether)
- Battlefield Control spells, such as Grease, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone

A PsiCrystal can "stay awake" and perform the function of Alarm at double the range and can move around to examine multiple areas if necessary. Course, so can a Familiar, but a PsiCrystal is Sighted and a Familiar is not. On the other hand, Alarms can be placed in multiple distance separated areas simulataneously.

Detect Hostile Intent, although shorter duration, can also be used in a similar capacity.

Sepia, well, there are powers Psions have that Sorcerers do not. Single spells mean little in the large scheme of things.


Battlefield Control powers: Energy Wall, Wall of Ectoplasm, Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass

Not a great choice when compared to the Sorcerer, but there are still ways for the Psion to do this. Having more party assist spells is handled by S18.

 

[irdeggman]

How worthwhile a familiar may be is dependent on the campaign and the player. One cannot make a blanket statement that it is worth more than a feat. In my game, nobody wants to take a Familiar and I have heard that a lot here on the boards as well.

Actually flat out stating that a familiar (or psi crystal) is worth more than feat is a perfectly legitimate statment. First off they grant one of the more generally useful feats (Alertness) and then they provide additional benefits depending on what type is chosen and they scale with their "owner's" level.

But, regardless of campaign, having the choice to take one or not take one is a greater choice than getting one and not being able to replace it with a specialized feat.

I agree with this one, but the advantage is not as good as a feat - more likely a 1 or 2 rating. Oh wait you gave it a 2 which is about right, IMO.


Now comparing the crystal and a normal familiar as to which is more powerful. IMO the familiar is. Some of this is because the crystal's benefits are all tied to levels in a psionic class while a familiar gets several that are only dependent on character level.

 

[Scion]

Oh, you mean like Metamorphis?

yep, glad you saw the connection.

Precisely. It is an option that Psions have that Sorcerers do not have until much higher level.

Hence, advantage Psion.

Psion advantage that they can lose a large chunk of pp for a horribly inefficient heal? At level 5 the psion burns his 5 pp (likely around 1/7 of his daily total) to regain hp gained by his first hd.

But sure, it could be seen as a psion advantage, although vampiric touch and false life are sorc advantages.. temp hp vs healing after the fact.. all in all I'd rather have vampiric touch as an option for the psion. Hence overall a wash, given the choices.

You have to survive the lower levels to get to the higher levels.

And this has what to do with overall balance? D&D is based on a general overall balance.. not every class is equal at every level in ability. They fluctuate.

For this case at some points one is better and at other points the other is better.

Sure, maybe the overall balance could be better in that fashion, but it is what we have to work with here. The core rules do it all of the time. If you feel that the psions shouldnt do it and should be punished that is your own deal, but since we are comparing to the core and the core does it then.....

Finally, Summon Monsters healing is campaign dependent. Some DMs (or the players themselves) will only allow casting Summon spells of the same alignment.

Some dm's allow in books other than the core, so I guess this whole arguement is campaign dependent..

However, just because some dms will break the rules has nothing to do with this discussion. Some dms might allow sorcs access to all spells to choose from, no matter what the original source. Uh oh, I guess that means that sorcs are imbalanced because of some houserule. But then we know it is unimportant to a balance discussion about the raw what houserules the dm might come up with.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I like my psions to survive.

Then you probably shouldnt pick up pp draining powers that give little benefit. Stick to better guns.

And, Time Hop typically means that the downed Ally comes back quickly since he gets a Will Save every round.

Again incorrect.


As for 'double dipping' posted earlier I would have to say that many of your numbers double or tripple or even more. There are many instances when you say, 'already covered by #' when the corallation is loose at best and generally completely incorrect unless you add in extra text saying so. It makes those numbers worth much more than they would appear since they are apparently counting for much more than they say.

Ahh well, I am done with this thread for now. Hopefully at some point the numbers will become a bit clearer on what exactly they are trying to represent.