The Big Weighed Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Shadowdweller]

How worthwhile a familiar may be is dependent on the campaign and the player. One cannot make a blanket statement that it is worth more than a feat. In my game, nobody wants to take a Familiar and I have heard that a lot here on the boards as well.

I've had plenty of games where druid players don't take an animal companion simply because they don't want to have to deal with the paperwork. That doesn't make it any less a significant class advantage, now does it? Most of the advantages I listed, you will note, are NOT campaign-specific. Unless knowledge skills and spot/listen checks simply aren't used in said campaign I suppose.

But, regardless of campaign, having the choice to take one or not take one is a greater choice than getting one and not being able to replace it with a specialized feat.

That is definitely true. The question, however, is how MUCH of an advantage.

A PsiCrystal can "stay awake" and perform the function of Alarm at double the range and can move around to examine multiple areas if necessary. Course, so can a Familiar, but a PsiCrystal is Sighted and a Familiar is not. On the other hand, Alarms can be placed in multiple distance separated areas simulataneously.

The Alarm spell also automatically detects sneaking/hiding creatures. And can wake the entire party at once.

Detect Hostile Intent, although shorter duration, can also be used in a similar capacity.

Sepia, well, there are powers Psions have that Sorcerers do not. Single spells mean little in the large scheme of things.

The point really isn't individual spells but CLASSES of spells. By Wardings I'm trying to get at things such as Fire Trap, Glyph of Warding (non-sorc), or the Symbol spells. In essence, traps that do not require the presence of the Sorc or of significant class investments.

I think, moreover, that single spells/powers CAN actually make a big difference if they are sufficiently useful and different from anything else available. A spell/power isn't really distinguishable from an optional, limited use/day class ability. If there was one of these latter given, it would be mentioned when speaking of balance, would it not? (Stunning Fist option for a monk when discussing monk balance for example)

Battlefield Control powers: Energy Wall, Wall of Ectoplasm, Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass

Not a great choice when compared to the Sorcerer, but there are still ways for the Psion to do this. Having more party assist spells is handled by S18.

Which is why I said:

Or at least vastly inferior.

The numbers and variety of the Psionic versions are not anywhere near comparable (Note that one of those on your list is discipline-specific). To further analyze the arcane superiority in this matter, note that the arcane versions achieve I) lack of a save (Solid Fog, Acid Fog), II) effects which are permanent (Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone), and III) effects which restrain but do not block Line of Effect (all fog spells, Reverse Gravity, Forcecage, EBT, many others).

As for S18: I think that sort of advantage is overly broad. Spellcasting/Power-manifesting is the MAIN ability of these classes. If you're going to rate entire spell categories on the same level as Armor Proficiency: Light or Armor Proficiency: Medium, you're going to be undervaluing them.

There are entire classes of Powers which cannot be easily replicated by the Sorc/Wizard spells too for that matter (Example: Free-action spell/power resistance). And they probably -should- be listed if you're going to accurately analyze balance issues.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now comparing the crystal and a normal familiar as to which is more powerful. IMO the familiar is. Some of this is because the crystal's benefits are all tied to levels in a psionic class while a familiar gets several that are only dependent on character level.

I haven't actually sat down and compared them. We probably should. I won't list ones that both of them have:

Psicrystal:

1) Construct Traits (i.e. immune to poison, ability damage, critical hits, mind affects, etc.)
2) Sighted, darkness and silence spells do not phase it within 40 feet
3) Telepathic
4) Flight
5) Climbing, including Take 10
6) Choice of 15 benefits
7) Hardness 8
8) Can use a feat to add abilities such as an additional benefit
9) Can be repaired
10) User does not take damage if it is destroyed
11) Can speak one language (ravens can do this too)
12) Typically get more skill ranks (since Psions typically get more skill points)

This last one is campaign specific, but objects tend to not be as noticable as creatures.

13) Look like an object, can easily be concealed within another object (e.g. a crystal in a chandeler)


Familiar:

1) Actual visual sight, sometimes improved
2) Empathic
3) Some form of movement
4) Choice of 9 benefits
5) Magical Beast (immune to some spells)
6) Can have a better save than the master, typically doesn't
7) Can use a feat to get an improved familiar
8) Can be healed
9) Can be raised
10) Might be able to attack beyond touching for minor damage
11) Sometimes +1 better at touch spells, somtimes not (PsiCrystals have a Str of 1, so -4 for touch powers)


Due to the construct traits and its ability to take less damage, it looks like the Psicrystal has the edge.

Do you see any I missed that one or the other has, but not both?

 

[Rystil Arden]

A few things on the familiar/psicrystal comparison:

*Some of the things you listed as Psicrystal advantages only occur at higher levels than 1, whereas all the Familiar advantages you listed occur at level 1.

*Familiars also use master's ranks, plus a minimum on some skills

*Familiars can also be improved by core feats (Improved Familiar is core).

 

[KarinsDad]

I've had plenty of games where druid players don't take an animal companion simply because they don't want to have to deal with the paperwork. That doesn't make it any less a significant class advantage, now does it? Most of the advantages I listed, you will note, are NOT campaign-specific. Unless knowledge skills and spot/listen checks simply aren't used in said campaign I suppose.

See my post above on Psicrystals versus Familiars. Psicrystals are almost across the board as good or better then Familiars (game mechanics-wise) and the Psion still gets the choice on whether to take a Psicrystal or a specialized feat.

Psicrystals are tougher and are immune to virtually everything a Familiar is plus a lot more, etc.

This is definitely a Psion advantage.

 

[KarinsDad]

A few things on the familiar/psicrystal comparison:

*Some of the things you listed as Psicrystal advantages only occur at higher levels than 1, whereas all the Familiar advantages you listed occur at level 1.

The only thing I listed was Flight. They get 30 move and 20 Climb at level one.

They get Telepathic Link at first level.

I did not even list Telepathic Speech later on compared to speak with same type animal.

*Familiars also use master's ranks, plus a minimum on some skills

Missed that. Fixed.

Course, since Int is a Psion core ability score, it still means that Psicrystals tend to gain more skill ranks than Familiars.

*Familiars can also be improved by core feats (Improved Familiar is core).

I listed that.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The only thing I listed was Flight. They get 30 move and 20 Climb at level one.

They get Telepathic Link at first level.

I did not even list Telepathic Speech later on.

Ah, when you just said 'Telepathic' , it seemed to include them both. In that case, just Flight

 

[KarinsDad]

The Alarm spell also automatically detects sneaking/hiding creatures. And can wake the entire party at once.

The Psicrystal can speak, so it too can wake up the entire party at once. Or, it can mentally wake up just the Psion.

It does not auto-detect invisible creatures, but it can detect most creatures.

It also isn't magic, so it is not susceptible to Detect Magic / Dispel Magic of enemies either.

And, it looks like a normal crystal, so it can often be in plain sight (or slightly concealed) and if the enemies are not familiar with what it is, they are not going to give it a second glance.

Pros and Cons.

 

[KarinsDad]

As for S18: I think that sort of advantage is overly broad. Spellcasting/Power-manifesting is the MAIN ability of these classes. If you're going to rate entire spell categories on the same level as Armor Proficiency: Light or Armor Proficiency: Medium, you're going to be undervaluing them.

There are entire classes of Powers which cannot be easily replicated by the Sorc/Wizard spells too for that matter (Example: Free-action spell/power resistance). And they probably -should- be listed if you're going to accurately analyze balance issues.

I do not know what "Free-action spell/power resistance" you are talking about.

But, there are things Psions can do Sorcerers cannot. Things Sorcerers can do that Psions cannot.

But, you cannot list them all. It becomes a quagmire if you even attempt it.

Plus, I have listed seven different classes of spells for the Sorcerer S10, S12, S13, S14, S16, S17 and including the generic one S18. I only listed four different classes of powers for the Psion: P19, P20, P22, and P23.

After talking it about it more, I think I should have bumped S16 through S18 up one point each though.

On the magical trap spell issue, I agree with you it could have been on the list. A minor advantage in my mind (I would rate it 1) since many magical traps are annoying at most for the level of PC (or NPC) they are targeted for and I have never seen a PC or NPC Sorcerer take such a spell (Wizards, yes, Sorcerers, no), but it could have been on the list nonetheless.

I tend to think that Sorcerers tend to not take magical trap spells or spells that cost XP or GP to cast as often, just because they get so few spells at each level. The option is there, but very few character concepts mesh well with the option due to selection choice.

 

[irdeggman]

And, it looks like a normal crystal, so it can often be in plain sight (or slightly concealed) and if the enemies are not familiar with what it is, they are not going to give it a second glance.

Not quite, it is a rather "large" crystal.

A psicrystal appears as a crystalline construct about the size of a human hand.

So while it can be hidden it still sticks out - and when it moves about it grows legs and looks like a spider - pretty conspicous if I do say so. {I still think that it a neat visual image though. }

Most familiars look like normal animals so in most cases they can be less obstrusive.

 

[irdeggman]

It also isn't magic, so it is not susceptible to Detect Magic / Dispel Magic of enemies either.

Familiars aren't subject to dispel magic either.

I'm not certain, but I don't think a detect magic will work on a familiar either unless it has spell cast on it.