The Black Company (aka Rawr, the Lady)

[hellbender]

BTRC is the company that was intending on doing the BC rpg. And heck, they are still around.

http://www.btrc.net/


h.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Re: The Black Company Campaign

1. There are almost no monsters in the world. So just about everything the PCs do will be NPC related. This is not really conducive to maintaining player interest in the game.

It helps to have Players that are actually interested in such a thing. I had a group like that in Chicago, but having moved a few months back, I'm down to one Player. Anyone in the Newport News/Norfolk (Va) area that's interested can e-mail me.

2. As many have pointed out, there is a complete and utter lack of divine healing available. Shifter displays some healing ability in the first book, but it's definitely arcane in nature and tough to do since nobody else seems to do it throughout the rest of the series.

This has the result of making a continuous campaign very difficult to run as the ability to recover HPs (or other damage) is integral to D&D. Somebody mentioned a WP/VP system. I'm not familiar with how that one works, so it might be a possibility. Or, it might be beneficial to take a page from Neverwinter nights and make it possible to use a Heal check to actually cure damage. This makes Croaker's status as physician a lot more meaninful, assuming he has a bunch of ranks in heal.

W&V is from Star Wars. Essentially, it seperates HP into two catagories: The first is actual physical endurance in taking damage, the second being the duck/dodge/weave/roll quality of Hit Points. Vitality recovers quickly, Wounds don't.

Also, I quantified a Surgeon Class (basically Expert with a specific Skills set, including Profession: Surgeon). This provides the effect required to handle this matter.

3. True spellcasting ability is incredibly rare. I'd go so far as to say there probably ought not to be any spellcasters in the party. Even if there are, there shouldn't be more that one and his magic should be limited to illusion and shadow, rather than actual hard-core spell slinging.

Again, this is not helpful in running a game that everybody is going to enjoy for the long term.

Have had little difficulty in this regard, although, as stated, it's helpful to find Players that are interested in just that sort of campaign environment.

4. The Black Company Campaign is military fiction. The opportunities for dungeon crawling are fairly limited in a campaign that stays completely true to the source material. Mostly you're looking at politics/covert ops type stuff. Almost more of a spy-like game than a D&D game.

Here's where I gotta disagree, but only on the basis that being spy-like or politically focused does not prevent a game from being D&D.

A game in which the players play fighters, rogues, and rangers (minus spellcasting abilities), have virtually no access to magic and spend their time fighting and politicking with other fighters, rogues, and rangers while avoiding being stomped by any of the true powers in the world.

I have great difficulty believing that any campaign based strictly on the core material would last very long.

Six years, and it's only slowed down because I had to relocate for professional reasons.

There's just not enough variety. Thus, while I may draw some indirect criticisim on this thread for not being absolutely true to the sourcebooks, I think I've done an excellent job of making an actual PLAYABLE, ONGOING campaign out of the Black Company concept, while maintaining the flavor of the books.

I commend you on your efforts. However, in browsing your site, I keep seeing references to Forgotten Realms material, which, to me, is the complete opposite type of environment.

Throwing around ideas of "how things ought to be" is fine, but if you don't actually pay some attention to whether things will be enjoyable for the players, then you're not really generating campaign ideas, you're just yakking on a messageboard.

Being that I have my own setting (flavored by the BC rather than just having it's name plastered on it), I'm not really interested in generating campaign ideas. I am, however, indicating how I've done things thus far and will continue to do them.

With my mini-rant over, there are a few things I can actually contribute:

Rebuttle ends... Commentary begins.

1. Glen Cook sold the rights to a Black Company RPG to some game company quite a while ago. (During the 80's, I think.) That company ultimately folder and/or decided not to pursue them. So until somebody goes to the effort and expense of tracking down and accquiring those rights, we'll never see any BC material published "officially."

Good. Last thing we need is someone "officially" screwing it up.

2. The Taken should definitely be a template. I'd say one that provides a big bump to Str and Con, as well as requires special rules for killing one of them (similar to a Tarrasque or something). The Limper and Soulcatcher had incredible physical combat abilities, especially when augmented by spells. This means a high str, and a lot of HPs. (see Shadows Linger/The Black Company).

The process of Taking should probably be an Epic spell. Not really any need to stat it out since the players will never cast it, or probably even see it cast.

Fair amount of sense, there.

3. I'd guess most of the Taken are wizards in their mid 20s since they actually studfy magic, rather than just grabbing arcane power and hurling it about. Limper and Soulcatcher are definitely the most powerful (30 or so?), while Bonegnasher has the least magical ability, but tremendous physical capabilities.

Could almost equate them to the Mystics of Nog from the Al'Qadim setting (exchanging Arcane Power for physical gains).

5. The Lady is probably somewhere in the range of 40th level or so, while the Dominator might be up as high as 60.

I'd have to say that we really don't see enough out of the Dominator to make any sort of distinction. He could be 60, 80 or even 100, but his current stasis limits him a great deal.

6. Silent is actually a true wizard, as opposed to Goblin and One-Eye who are primarily illusionists. (Silent is actually taught some magic by the Taken in Shadows Linger).

One-Eye is also taught a few things by Lady in She Is The Darkness.

The Sword Bearer

Great book.

The Dread Empire Trilogy (a BC precursor)

Haven't been able to get my hands on it.

 

[Khorod]

Lets see, if you set the campaign after the last book... you have shadow creatures of various types in hiding in the corners of the world, both those of Tobo and otherwise.

You have the monsters of the Plain of Fear- and you could easily set up: The great tree is inexplicably dying and sending out its servants to test the minds and hearts of mortals the world over to see if they can take up residence in the tree and continue the endless vigil...

So then you have a freaking lot of monsters, all dedicated to causing trouble for others...

Then, you have: 'With the final death of Taken X, the spells shielding his original stronghold fail, and all the monstrous experiments he engaged in are set loose upon the world.' I think limper or shapeshifter would be good here for some reason.

Then you have the watchamacallit that whatshername was turned into. That's gotta be a monstrous race somewhere, probably using the rules for the animal form of a lycanthrope would get you close, or maybe a dire animal form of a lycanthrope...

The, of course, you also have a humanocentric world. So have a humanocentric campaign.

The friend of mine who got me into Black Company in the first place doesn't particularly think BC can be done in D&D, not because the setting doesn't translate, but because small groups of people can't accomplish anything but survive, or make a minimal profit, in that world. To this I say: Make the party both lucky and as dangerously competent as Raven, and you can get somewhere. But maybe a BC campaign should have the party be the senior officers of a mercenary group. The chief guys in Black Company got most meaningful things done working as a company, but they could also go on small strike/skirmish/scouting missions on occasion.

The point is to be able to play in BC World, not to try to play a D&D Hero transplanted...

 

[Black Omega]

Small groups can accomplish some in places. For a time the Black Company was little more than a few people. Some of them higher level. But many recent enough to the company they could not have many levels in Fighter. I think the thing I find most interesting is how rarely you ever hear or someone being trained in magic. Aside from Shapershifter's student, all magic users are old and at least somewhat powerful.

 

[Khorod]

Well, if every competent magic user is going to live until well past 100, and, say, 50% of spellcasters die before reaching the power to extend their lifespans significantly, then you have characters like One-Eye taking two apprentices in the course of their lives.

Then, their is 'basic magic' taught in the back room at university libraries. Competent students their probably leave and contrive to continue teaching themselves. Bomanz had no other mentor but at the university, at least that we know of.

And when the Black Company was a few people, they were a few powerful people focused mostly on a) proactive approach to survival, b) increase the number of trustworthy members.

Did the Black Company, when it was small in number, do much else?

 

[drothgery]

Small groups can accomplish some in places. For a time the Black Company was little more than a few people. Some of them higher level. But many recent enough to the company they could not have many levels in Fighter. I think the thing I find most interesting is how rarely you ever hear or someone being trained in magic. Aside from Shapershifter's student, all magic users are old and at least somewhat powerful.

Err... Doj, Sara, and Raven had very minor magic abilities and only Doj was old when he first showed up. Raven learned some magic as a sideline at a university. Sara almost certainly learned from her mother or her grandmother.

Arkana and Shukrat were teenage girls -- Shukrat was about One-Eye's equal, and Arkana was considerably less powerful; both were presumably trained by more senior members of their family. Tobo wasn't more than twenty, could hold his own with Soulcatcher, Howler, and/or Longshadow, and was taught by Lady and One-Eye (for the most part).

One-Eye mentions the wizard that he and Tom-Tom were apprentices to at one point.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Re: Epic levels

The Lady clearly is an Epic-level wizard before her Naming, and even afterwards, when she tapped into Kina's power, she managed to build herself back up almost to those levels.

In The White Rose, Lady pretty much comes out and says that she cast one spell in the past which made her immune to the effects of age, disease, etc. You have to read a *little* between the lines but it's there.

Why does she age so rapidly after being taken out of the Ice Cave? I think it's because the stasis of the cave and the magic used to dispel it broke the lingering effects of the enchantment.

At other times in the series, Lady points out that the Taken would not have survived as long as they had without preparing for just about every contingency. Take the Limper; even decapitated, he was still able to function fairly effectively in The Silver Spike. Take Soulcatcher; ditto, only more so. The difference? Soulcatcher was almost at Lady's level in terms of sheer power, and Soulcatcher had prepared more effectively.

Ranking powers (in terms of demonstrated ability):
Deities (effectively)
The Tree
Kina

Demi-deities
Shivetya
The thing the Tree was guarding
The Dominator

High Epic-Level
Lady

Mid Epic-levels
Limper
Soulcatcher
Shapeshifter
the rest of the Ten who were Taken

Low Epic-levels
Whisper
Bomanz

High normal levels
Tobo (who has the potential to get much, much more powerful)
Booboo (ditto)
The Lady's Taken
Much of the rebel's Circle

and it just goes down from there until you hit Raven who has a minor talent that could have been trained into something up to Goblin or One-Eye's level, and Sahra who has a minor and totally untrained talent for prophecy.

The magic system works, it seems to me, as sort of a cross between D&D Sorcery and D&D Wizardry. It's clear that almost all spellcasters develop and learn spells like a wizard, with all of a wizard's versatility, but that the casting tends to be spontaneous, like a sorcerer's, and there is very little drawback to actually casting spells. However, there's also an innate limit to spellcasting ability; you can never become more powerful than that limit, whatever it may be. And at some undefined point, no matter how powerful you are, you become exhausted and incapable of casting more spells.

Each wizard develops his own little specialties, possibly as a result of maximising the use of the power available, which may also have an effect on the wizard's ability to extend his potential. Only a few are capable of the kind of general prowess Lady, Tobo, and the Dominator have.





Tarek

Hmm, actually we don`t know enough about most of The Taken to equate their power level, but I agree that Limper and Soulcatcher seemed to be most powerful and craftiest. Oh, and do not forget Long Shadow, he was the greatest of The Shadowmasters and Howler served him.

Actually I think that non-Epic spellcasting Class using Spell Seeds from ELH might be quite suitable for BC Campaign, I don`t recall Goblin or One-Eye using any damage dealing Spell, this is because they couldn`t beat +20 to Spellcraft to cast Spell as Action instead of 1 minute, which Taken and Shadow Masters could do. It would actually work well with Grim and Gritty alternative combat rules. And spellcasters should be able to take Feats giving high bonuses( 10 or more) to Spellcraft Checks in their areas of Specialization, like Polymorph for Shifter, and Air for Stormbringer.

By the way, does anyone know where I can find synopsis of "Water Sleeps" and "Soldiers Live"?

 

[Soulmage]

Re: Re: The Black Company Campaign

It helps to have Players that are actually interested in such a thing. I had a group like that in Chicago, but having moved a few months back, I'm down to one Player. Anyone in the Newport News/Norfolk (Va) area that's interested can e-mail me.

Have had little difficulty in this regard, although, as stated, it's helpful to find Players that are interested in just that sort of campaign environment.

I'm surprised you've had that much response for a game with limited scope. I've had absolutely no problems finding players, and in fact have a waiting list of people waiting to get in.

Here's where I gotta disagree, but only on the basis that being spy-like or politically focused does not prevent a game from being D&D.

I wasn't implying that it wasn't D&D to be politically focused or spy-like. I was just attempting to characterize the nature of the game.

Six years, and it's only slowed down because I had to relocate for professional reasons.

Also six years, going on seven, and still going strong with the aforementioned player waiting list.

I commend you on your efforts. However, in browsing your site, I keep seeing references to Forgotten Realms material, which, to me, is the complete opposite type of environment.

Thanks. As far as the Forgotten Realms material goes. The only material you will see is the pantheon. Lacking any kind of established pantheon from the source material, I was forced to create one so that there could be clerics in the world. Eventually I switched to a version of the FR pantheon since it had more development of the various faiths than I had time for. I explicitly state on my site that although the names and portfolios of the FR gods are mostly the same, the "flavor" of the pantheon is very different. In FR, the gods are very much (too much in my opinion) involved in the deeds of mortals. In my campaign the gods are very cold and aloof. In addition, many of the FR deities that feature prominently in their home setting, don't feature at all in mine (Mystra for example).

I agree that FR is completely the opposite type of feel for a BC campaign. That is why I have gone to great lengths to avoid any kind of "taint" from that setting, while still taking advantage of some background material I didn't have time to develop on my own. Given the limited role the deities play, its been working quite well.

I'd have to say that we really don't see enough out of the Dominator to make any sort of distinction. He could be 60, 80 or even 100, but his current stasis limits him a great deal.

Very true. This does raise another issue, however. At what point in the series do you have your campaign set, and how much do you feel constrained by the events in the books to play out as written?

If you're playing a strict interpretation, this might not be as much of an issue, as the players will never become powerful enough to shape world events. IMC, I hold out that carrot to them, although almost all parties die/retire before ever reaching that stature.

Currently, my campaign is set prior to the first book, although since I run a continuous timeline, we're coming up on that time. I don't feel constrained to run the campaign according to the plot laid out in the books. Rather I've "taken" the setting and characters, and let the plot develop on its own.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Re: Re: Re: The Black Company Campaign

I'm surprised you've had that much response for a game with limited scope. I've had absolutely no problems finding players, and in fact have a waiting list of people waiting to get in.

It's not of limited scope. If anything, the fact that this sort of play is perceived as outside the normal bounds and intent of D&D is rather indicative of 3E's perceived limited scope.

As far as the Forgotten Realms material goes. The only material you will see is the pantheon. Lacking any kind of established pantheon from the source material, I was forced to create one so that there could be clerics in the world...In my campaign the gods are very cold and aloof...Given the limited role the deities play, its been working quite well.

But here's the contradiction: By having Clerics, you've already established an environment that greatly differs from the source material, especially since granting spells is by far more influential than any BC god ever was. After all, Divine Spells are, in and of themselves, proof of a deity's existance, while in the BC books, the actual existance of deities is not only doubtful, it's rather unlikely.

Consequently, since surgery isn't as dependable as Healing magic, what are folks like Croaker doing for a living? Seems he'd be far less important and influential to Company affairs being that his services aren't especially needed beyond that of Yoeman, which anyone capable of reading, writing and performing basic math can do.

Now, the last time I browsed your site (and I'll go take another look if you indicate that this changed), it was stated that several FRCS elements were in play, including spells and Prestige Classes. Now, you say you're only using gods, and that they're "distant" and such, and that's fine. But I'd be just as concerned about the effect of Psionics and the Archmage Prestige class as I would be about Divine Spells.

Some sensibility in using the Mongoose material on Demonology, especially since that material can be tweaked to reflect Shadow Mastery, but I'd question Acolyte of the Skin and True Necromancer.

I understand that you're looking to achieve the standard playing style of 3E in the BC setting, but the question is: Why bother if your changes are going to make the only similarity between TBC books and the campaign be the names? After all, couldn't WotC had just released a map and new monsters and said, "Here's Wheel of Time", or done similar and said, "Here's call of Cthulu." No, because these settings and genres required specific alterations to the mechanics in order to be what the names indicate that they are.

Your site doesn't indicate such a thing; It indicates FR with a different map and history. I'm not saying it isn't a good game or that it's not fun for you and yours, but if I am asked what sites out there are good for Glen Cook fans to visit, your's isn't one of them. It's got too many qualities of otherness about it comparible to the difference between the two Planet of the Ape movies.

Very true. This does raise another issue, however. At what point in the series do you have your campaign set, and how much do you feel constrained by the events in the books to play out as written?

As was already indicated, I don't run a BC campaign, but I have developed rules to obtain a similar feel; A short summary of the rules is about a page or so back, but I'll list some of the goals originally set forth that have been accomplished while maintaining playability.

1. Godless.
Divine Magic appears in only two forms: Druidic and Shamanistic. In both cases, the energies involved are more related to fantastical sciences than divine intervention. Clerics and Paladins are a non-factor, although some PClasses (which favor Experts more than any other class) also manage to tap into the "faith science" that exists.

2. Grim and Harsh
Some rules are in place that impose limitations on characters, keeping out the super-heroics which proliferate 3E and thus generating what I call the "real people" effect typical of the Black Company series.

3. Military Action
Effort continues in the development of mass-combat rules. While we are using Mongoose's system as a base, we've found that it's not the kind of rules-set you actually want your PC in the middle of, and are thus adjusting accordingly.

4. Low Magic
Another 3E proliferation is the abundance and addict-like dependance on magical spells and items. This need for magical buffers and trinkets has been trimmed to less than 1/10th the standard amount.

The end result is a setting where Skills like Profession, Craft and Knowledge are just as important (if not more important) than Spot, Listen, Jump, etc., where political intrigue is just as dangerous as a dusty crypt, where monsters (when they do appear) are vicious and deadly, where death is almost always permanent (but less likely since storyline and plot, not combat, are the focus), and magic, while rare, is often the key to power, and thus made difficult to obtain and hard to master.

In other words, in the same niche as The Black Company.

Going back to look at your work, it's seen that you've done just the opposite: Focused on individual characters over military action, brought deities and their magic into the equation, permited the occurance of D&D "super-heroics", and boosted the magic level to Core standards.

I'd have to say, while you're using the Black Company name, my setting seems far closer to the spirit. If I were to address the option of actually running a BC campaign, I'd simply have to trim some fat from my rules. You're rules, on the other hand, can't even be considered a suitable reference since they are already so divergent from the source material.

If you're playing a strict interpretation, this might not be as much of an issue, as the players will never become powerful enough to shape world events.

Actually, a strict interpretation of the books would have the PCs:

• Partially responsible for the fall of Beryll.
• Squash a revolution against the Empire.
• Expand that Empire as far as Juniper.
• Lead and win a revolution against said Empire.
• Cast Limper and the Silver Spike into a bottomless void.
• Devestate the Shadow Masters, including the destruction of no less than three major cities.
• Eliminate all of the religious leaders of the Dahli and place the royal family in complete control.
• Run a para-military guerilla/terrorist revolt against Soulcatcher.
• Put-down a wanna-be goddess.
• Destroy the most influential trade center in the South.
• Re-establish guardianship over what's essentially a transient plane.

Sounds rather influential to me, and most of it can be done by judicial use of the Leadership Feat and long-term tactical planning.

Currently, my campaign is set prior to the first book, although since I run a continuous timeline, we're coming up on that time. I don't feel constrained to run the campaign according to the plot laid out in the books. Rather I've "taken" the setting and characters, and let the plot develop on its own.

That's a commendable effort to a degree. I gotta say, though, that I wouldn't really appreciate your changes. The inclusion of several things (especially the high levels of magic) would turn me off from the game rather quickly, since it wouldn't "feel" like a Black Company game. No offense intended, just the facts of the matter.

 

[Khorod]

Actually, it struck me that Raven and Uncle Doj were suitably larger than life without being uber-beings that you could treat them like PC heroes in the usual sense.

The first time I read the book, I viewed most of the characters as being high level npc classes. The npc classes, to me, are meant to reflect a more mundane person, even at high level.