The Black Company (aka Rawr, the Lady)

[Tarek]

Why wizards are rare

Another thing that's fairly clear from reading the books is that, in general, wizards just don't get along too well. The ability to cast spells and use magic seems to be linked to willpower as well as intelligence, which means that most wizards, once they move beyond their apprenticeships, are:

a> obstinate
b> sure of their own correctness.

which leads to c> arrogance.

Look at Goblin and One-Eye. Even at the low level where they operate, even though they're fast friends, still they snipe at each other and play little games of one-upsmanship. Silent doesn't get involved because he's, well, Silent. It's hard to act arrogantly when you don't speak at all.

The Taken also have rivalries, on a grand and lethal scale. The only thing keeping them in check is a power greater than theirs, the Lady.

It's not correct to say that people are actively "gunning for wizards" in the Black Company world. Most people will leave wizards strictly alone. Period. The Taken might indeed search for and recruit wizards in an attempt to stretch their power, but they're not going to bother every apprentice, hermit, and hedge-witch; they're going to look for those with just enough power to be useful but not enough power to be a challenger.

Remember, the situation in the Black Company books is that One-Eye, Goblin, and Silent are fighting in a counter-insurgency campaign. Most of the time, when they reveal their talents, they're already engaged in combat with people who are desperate and dangerous. When they went to Roses after Raker, however, they walked around town selling magical amulets, and nothing happened to them.

The other thing is that most wizards just don't have what it takes to get past fourth or fifth level (in D&D terms). Keep a close track of the spells that Goblin and One-Eye cast in the Books of the South. Both wizards stick primarily to illusions because they're the most effective and versatile spells at their level. In fact, there's a good case to be made that most wizards are specialists in illusion or divination magics.

This limit will have to be put into the rules somewhere; I'd suggest enforcing a cap on maximum starting intelligence, using the standard "point-buy" system for attributes, making sure that wizards have positive modifiers in charisma and wisdom and have only one stat between 8 and 10.

Using the average of intelligence, charisma, and wisdom to determine the maximum spell level that a wizard can learn would not be a bad idea: a wizard with 16 int, 13 wis and 14 cha would be able to learn spells up to 4th level (16+13+14=14.3=14=4th), would use wisdom for bonus spells, Int for his spellcraft rolls and charisma for the save DC.

Tarek Okail

 

[barsoomcore]

The class should be balanced in the rules, rather than making it overbalancingly powerful, and then relying on the DM to devote time and effort to enforce a penalty.

Has anybody suggested making an unbalancingly powerful class? There was drothgery's "Leveled Template" but that hasn't found much currency in this thread, it seems. There's been some talk of a spell seed system, of giving wizards sorcerer spell progression -- none of which is clearly unbalancingly powerful.

I don't get all the fuss about "why would anybody not play a wizard?" What's the difference between BC and D&D? Wizards can't fight and get whomped on in combat -- UNTIL they're massively powerful, at which point they whomp on each other.

But look at a character like Mogaba. He doesn't do any magic but boy is he hard to kill. He's basically a high-level fighter, holding his own in a world run by insane epic-level mages. But the only reason he never turned Goblin into paste is because Goblin's too smart to get caught alone and unprepared.

Or consider Bonegnasher. Could he cast any spells? Who knows? Even Shapeshifter never showed much magical hoo hah -- he just had a permanent change self spell on the go. Just because the Taken were called wizards doesn't mean they had any levels in the D&D class "wizard".

The big difference between BC and standard D&D isn't the arcane magic-users -- they're basically the same. It's the lack of clerics and divine spellcasters. There doesn't appear to be much healing magic in this world -- which has a HUGE impact on the way a game is played, let me tell you. My campaign's the same way and things are very different without Cure Light Wounds. That, coupled with Grim n' Gritty, will make for a very different gaming style.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Has anybody suggested making an unbalancingly powerful class? There was drothgery's "Leveled Template" but that hasn't found much currency in this thread, it seems. There's been some talk of a spell seed system, of giving wizards sorcerer spell progression -- none of which is clearly unbalancingly powerful.

I don't get all the fuss about "why would anybody not play a wizard?" What's the difference between BC and D&D? Wizards can't fight and get whomped on in combat -- UNTIL they're massively powerful, at which point they whomp on each other.

I was responding more to the last few posts, including Teflon Billy's, rather than making a judgement about the thread in general. I pretty much agree with everything in your post. I think regular D&D can easily model the Black Company books. I don't think that all wizards in the BC universe are more powerful than everyone else. Note what I said above:

originally posted by me (with some spelling corrections):

Well, TB, I personally feel D&D models the Black Company series pretty well as it is. In my opinion, the reason the wizards in the books seem so overbalancingly powerful in game terms, is because they're higher in level, for the most part, than the non-wizardly characters. That seems to be because almost every wizard we see in the series is really old compared to the other characters.

In a way, the Black Company series seems to have a sensibility along the lines of Ars Magica. That is, wizards are just more powerful than everyone else. Why would anyone play a non-wizard in Ars Magica? I don't know the answer to that. The only reason I can see is purely from a roleplaying perspective. No, I really don't find that satisfying.

As you can see, I wasn't complaining about wizards being too powerful (EDIT - in the context of the Black Company). The post you responded to was one in which I was responding, in turn, to frog. So, in essence, I think you could be reading me a bit out of context.

 

[barsoomcore]

I think you could be reading me a bit out of context.

Oh yeah, no question. Sorry about that, kind of deliberately so. I felt that the whole "BC Wizards are overpowered" line was unproductive and was trying to suggest that focussing on the wizards was distracting us from all sorts of other elements in the BC world.

So I picked on you. Sorry again.

Now what do you think about this whole "Nobody's saying BC wizards are overpowered" line? Is that getting unproductive?

A more interesting problem is how do you model characters like Stormbringer or Shapeshifter? Experts in their field but not necessarily possessed of the wide range of spells a typical D&D wizard would have. How do you create a character who change shape at will but can't cast fireball? More importantly, how do you model a PC becoming that character?

Or was Shapeshifter a Druid rather than a Wizard?

Could we create a prestige class based on the notion of following a certain "spell chain" (to steal an idea from psionics)? This prestige class requires a basic familiarity with magic, but then instead of allowing a generalized progression lets the character pick some "chain" of spells and learn those much more effectively and quickly? Could that be done?

Well, of course it could. I just don't want to do the work.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Oh yeah, no question. Sorry about that, kind of deliberately so. I felt that the whole "BC Wizards are overpowered" line was unproductive and was trying to suggest that focussing on the wizards was distracting us from all sorts of other elements in the BC world.

So I picked on you. Sorry again.

Now what do you think about this whole "Nobody's saying BC wizards are overpowered" line? Is that getting unproductive?

A more interesting problem is how do you model characters like Stormbringer or Shapeshifter? Experts in their field but not necessarily possessed of the wide range of spells a typical D&D wizard would have. How do you create a character who change shape at will but can't cast fireball? More importantly, how do you model a PC becoming that character?

Or was Shapeshifter a Druid rather than a Wizard?

Could we create a prestige class based on the notion of following a certain "spell chain" (to steal an idea from psionics)? This prestige class requires a basic familiarity with magic, but then instead of allowing a generalized progression lets the character pick some "chain" of spells and learn those much more effectively and quickly? Could that be done?

Well, of course it could. I just don't want to do the work.

I could have been a bit clearer above. I was responding to the idea of using roleplaying penalties to balance classes in general, not the Black Company in particular. However, I used the Black Company as an example, which could cause confusion.

I'd say multiclassing is the order of the day for characters like Shapeshifter. Or, a specialized spellcaster with a very specifc spell list that draws from the Arcane and Divine lists, or, a unique Prestige Class, sure. I'd say that the spell "chain" idea could work in that regard. Still, I'd be careful to not limit the spells available to the Taken - we probably only ever saw a fraction of what they could do.

 

[barsoomcore]

I'd say that the spell "chain" idea could work in that regard.

Great! Now we just need some flunky to show up and do the work.

*looks around*

All outa flunkies, looks like. Darn.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I'm personally not too concerned about matching D&D's Balance where this is concerned. As I indicated earlier, I've developed a number of rules specifically to generate a similar feel of a harsh and dark world. While these go against the default balance of "heroic fantasy", it has worked wonders to keep things more gritty and harsh, grounding the characters in a more concrete sense of reality (i.e., more like real people in fantastical situations as opposed to fantastical people in a high-magic world).

1. A Birth Feat to become an Arcane Caster (take at Character Creation or forget it).
2. No Gods (thus no Clerics).
3. Wounds & Vitality (with some tweaks to fit D&D a bit better, but frees the need for Divine Healing HPs enforce on a game).
4. Aptitude Cap on Skills (Max Rank = Ability Score).
5. Magic Item Creation made 10x more difficult and expensive (including a required sympathetic relationship in which the item must also be Crafted by the Spellcaster).

Yes, in a generic sense, none of this fits the default balance, but these don't apply to a default setting, but to my world.

In the same sense, this thread isn't about a generic setting. We are talking about The Black Company. It's demands regarding balance are definately different.

Recently, I was in a debate on the Dark Sun Board at WotC discussing DS's Advanced Beings. In 2E, becoming these required a character of Wiz20/Psi20. Many felt that as 20/20 is "less powerful" than a Wiz40 or a Psi40, that these requirements should in fact be reduced. Many of these proposed ideas, however, were completely rediculous (including a Prestige Class that dual-advanced Wizard and Psion Levels ). To me, though, changing the requirements at all changed the setting from what it was, and reduced Dragons (the penultimate villains of the setting) to munchkin bait.

While everyone is generally free to do as they wish in regards to this topic (as, obviously, I have), I'd generally (as a DM) only use rules that captured TBC as-written. Any rules that "balance" Taken (and Spellcasters in general) with other character types wouldn't enter my game, since I wouldn't feel that I was playing in a BC campaign, just a watered down version of it made to appeal to many people (most of whom likely never read the books).

No offense to anyone, just my views in the matter.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Nobody is suggesting that Taken should be "balanced" against anything else. The concern is that if something i made too good, then all the players will want to play it. And you end up with a one-class campaign. That's fine if everyone wants to play the same class, but it limits the choices of those who don't - either they play that class, or get overshadowed by everyone else. That's why balance is important.

Besides, as I said above, Taken and wizards aren't unbalanced or unbalancing in the BC universe. They just happen to be higher in level than the characters we get to know really well.

If someone wants to be like a wizard or a Taken from the books (and you know who you are! ), they should have to work their way up to that point, not start out as an ubercharacter. I get the feeling that Goblin and One-Eye, let alone the Taken, took decades to get to their level of power - and that's something strongly implied in the books, if not outright stated.

 

[Mystic Eye]

1. A Birth Feat to become an Arcane Caster (take at Character Creation or forget it).
2. No Gods (thus no Clerics).
3. Wounds & Vitality (with some tweaks to fit D&D a bit better, but frees the need for Divine Healing HPs enforce on a game).
4. Aptitude Cap on Skills (Max Rank = Ability Score).
5. Magic Item Creation made 10x more difficult and expensive (including a required sympathetic relationship in which the item must also be Crafted by the Spellcaster).

I would say the most of this applies to the BC world. All but number 2. There are definately active gods, devils, and demons in BC. There are even clerics though I would say they are more rare than a wizard. The guy who followed Lady and Croaker's daughter around (can't recall his name off the top of my head, the head strangler) was a cleric with godly granted powers as far as I could tell. The Tree on the Plain of Fear was clearly a demi-god of some kind and was worshipped and protected by the creatures of the plain. It may be that in the last books Lady multi-classed into some prestige clerical type as she was able to draw power from Shiva.
Number 1 may not work for BC either. Raven seemed to have some aptitude for spell casting though it was not often obvious. I think if he had discovered that potential very young he would have nurtured it more, expecially if it was a very rare gift.

There seems to be a strange mix of power levels with spellcasters. Parts seemed based on learning, like a wizard, but there is definately inherent aptitudes that seem to manifest differently in individuals. Like the difference between One-Eye, Goblin, and Silent. Silent obviously, for what ever reason, had far more aptitude for more powerful magic than the other two. He was taught some pretty nasty tricks by the Taken that I think the other two could not even have mastered.

I love the BC setting but Mr. Cook does not want an RPG based on it from what I know. At least not an officail one.

My two cents!

 

[Mystic Eye]

oops