The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[EarthsShadow]

hehehehehehehe....I vant dis Book of Vile Darkness...gotts to get it.... so I's can maketh me the most dispicable and vileest villians eeevvveeerrrr... hehehehehehehehehe...


and then include kenders in my world!!!

 

[Xarlen]

and then include kenders in my world!!!

Kender were one of the things they cut out of the BoVD. Too vile.

 

[Moulin Rogue]

This question would have been better off early in the discussion, but....

did they really end up going with the cover art that's been posted online (and called 'too cartoony' on this board), or was the final one changed like other covers have been?

 

[Claude Raines]

Exactly. Yet that book contained deity-level interpretations of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods in an appendix and no one complained.

So why couldn't the Book of Vile Darkness be treated in a similar fashion!?

They could have treated it in the same fashion, but my point was that the books serve different purposes. One is to let you play CoC fully and completely. The other is to add evil to your villains in a standard D&D game (not epic or statted gods game).

BTW, the players in CoC are not meant to challenge the gods because that is the flavor of the campaign. Any who see them are supposed to go insane and/or die. You can change it if you want, but that's not how most people play it.

Okay lets look at a parallel here.

The Great Old Ones have worshippers so they are statted as gods. The Demon Princes and Archdevils also have worshippers...yet they are not statted as gods. Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?

No, because 3e specifically states that they aren't gods. It then goes to make a few exceptions (Lolth), but they are the exceptions, not the rule.

Even if we prescribe to this shaky 3rd Ed. canon they spend a not insignificant amount of time outlining the worshippers of these beings; detailing the domains these beings could grant; and explaining how "if you want" you could give them divine ranks.

True, which is darn nice of Monte to do so. Just because you have to buy Deities & Demigods to figure out all the particulars doesn't mean that they should have statted them twice for you. After all, if you want their stats as gods, you probably want the stats of all gods and have bought D&Dg. Then you can put the demons & devils at what power is appropriate for your campaign instead of WotC deciding for you and causing more consternation and uproar such as "Why isn't Orcus a greater god????"

The power level is consistent with where you would want it given you have to facilitate interaction with the lowest common denominator while still retaining some semblance of power. I have no problem with that in itself - actually it makes sense.

My only problem with the book is that Graz'zt is no longer consistent with Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of power.

I agree with you on both these points.

I didn't say it should do the same - but it certainly could without any difficulty. Also that would have also solved 90% of the discussion in this thread since you would have the Divine Asmodeus to challenge epic PCs and an Avatar Asmodeus to interact with powerful, though non-epic PCs. Simple as that.

Maybe so, but they might have had to cut something completely new instead, like a few spells, feats, or some equipment. I would rather have new stuff than dual statted demon princes. Of course, if they make a web enhancement with deity stats, I certainly won't complain and will probably use it happily.

 

[drnuncheon]

My only problem with the book is that Graz'zt is no longer consistent with Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of power.

CR is not a measure of power.

CR is a measure of the challenge to 4 PCs in a fight.

There are many ways to be powerful that do not involve being able to kick the tuckuses of 4 guys who show up on your front doorstep.

Graz'zt may be able to hold his own versus Demogorgon and Orcus for reasons other than sheer combat ability.

I haven't seen the stats or the background, so I'm not certain if that's the case, but it seems to be that 90% or more of the "wussy Graz'zt" complaint has been based solely on CR, which is as ridiculous as basing it solely on number of hit points.

In short: Graz'zt may be a tougher foe for other demon lords than he is for PCs. That won't be reflected in his CR, because CR isn't meant to measure how tough you are against demon lords, it's meant to measure how tough you are against PCs.

J

 

[Darkness]

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersc.html

Solar is CR 19 and has 22 HD. There's nothing in the MM errata for it.

Right. But many people (including UK, obviously) think that that's too low.

Me, I'm not sure; it seems rather low, compared to some other creatures, but I haven't yet put it to the test...

 

[Buttercup]

*Shrugs, blushes, rubs toe in the dirt.*

Aw, shucks.

And I haven't forgotten I owe you a map, either. It IS coming, I promise.

It's ok. I know you'll get it done when you can. We're taking a hiatus this month, as it happens, since I'm running a 1 shot adventure with throw-away characters while we play test Role Playing Master.

 

[BryonD]

I guess what I'm disagreeing with is the characterization of the two books as incompatible. That, to me, means that the books can't work together - which is obviously not the case.

Using your definition of "not compatible", every single d20 book is "not compatible" with each other - a statement which seems ridiculous to me - simply because they don't take every other d20 book into account. Such a definition of incompatibility stretches the meaning of the word past its breaking point, at least to my mind.

I prefer to reserve the word for more serious inabilities to work together, ones that cannot be resolved by ten minutes of work with a pencil and paper.

J

You do not have my definition of "not compatible" correct.

I won't speak for d20 in general anyway. I am only talking about WoTC D&D books.

Please quote where I defined "not compatible" in any way that remotely suggests what you have presented.

As I clearly stated before, if I us BoVD as-is and I use ELH as-is, Grazz'zt will not stand up at all.

Trying to do a hatchet job on what I did say and then attacking that does not have any relevance.

Edit: Perhaps I should clarify that the entire discussion has been in regard to the demon lords, and Grazz'zt in particular. I do not mean to imply that the feats, PClasses, spells, etc are not compatible.

 

[drnuncheon]

You do not have my definition of "not compatible" correct.

Obviously, since that's exactly what I was saying. I think it's a poor choice of words for the concept you are trying to get across, because it has implications which go far beyond what you are trying to say. That is what I was pointing out.

J

 

[Psion]

2. Give Orcus the paragon template from the ELH! Now that would make him super-powerful!

That'd work for any of these whiners complaining their favorite demon lord can't lay the smack down enough.