The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[IceBear]

Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt, IIRC, were near the same power level, with Demogorgon clearly out ahead

Hehehe - just had to quote that before someone else did

IceBear

 

[The Serge]

Hehehe - just had to quote that before someone else did

IceBear

 

[coyote6]

The analogy works.

Hmm. Not for me.

Places like Afghanistan between the collapse of the Soviets' puppet government & the rise of the Taliban, or Somalia about 10 years ago would be analogies I might find more persuasive and appropriate.

 

[kenjib]

Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust. In order for there to be intrigue, there has to be honesty. In order for there to be manipulation, there has to be loyalty. None of those qualities exist in the Abyss, so there are no politics. There can't be -- demons aren't capable of trusting each other, so deception, manipulation etc are out.

I disagree. Demons will group together when mutually beneficial for both parties. One form of deception and manipulation involves making sure it always *seems* beneficial for people to do things your way, even when it isn't. You discover people's selfish desires and ambitions and you twist them to your own ends. This does not require lawful behavior and easily allows for someone weak combat-wise to gain great power through political savvy.

There is also the "Risk" factor. If someone gets too strong, unlikely alliances form because everyone gets worried and then team up to lay the smack down. If Demogorgon takes over one third of the abyss, do you think that Orcus and Gra'azt are going to be worried about each other or about Demogorgon?

In this way, pushing people around and showing *too much* power is stupid and suicidal. It's a dangerous and manipulative game that you need to balance carefully. This requires political savvy, and whoever has the most ability in this regard is going to come out ahead, even if he can't physically defeat his enemies.

Again, one important aspect of this unsteady balance of power is the manipulation of common interests. Chaotic evil does not mean you never ally with anyone, ever. That's just stupid.

Barsoomcore: I agree, with the exception that it is not the idea of a demon that is unworkable. The idea that is unworkable is a demon ruler. The whole notion that there are demon suzeraines with armies and leutinants and such is ridiculous. None of the attributes involved with leadership or politics are possible in the Abyss. Everything comes down to intimidation and mistrust. As it is said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand', and what is the Abyss but a house divided by definition?

I think you underestimate the extent to which intimidation and mistrust can use fear to build powerful nation-states. History has shown that this happens time and time again. Watch the news today for an example.

Again, there is nothing inherently non-chaotic about manipulating common interests to serve your own purposes. It's perfectly Machiavellian and perfectly chaotic evil.

I don't think it's unbelievable that there are lords and leaders in the abyss. I do believe that there is not enough fluctuation in the power structure though. It seems to me that power should shift more frequently between different demon lords and that some of the people in charge now might have been unheard of a millenium ago (or vice versa). Perhaps a few of the major demon lords have survived for an incredible amount of time for various reasons, but not the majority of them.

 

[The Serge]

Hmm. Not for me.

Places like Afghanistan between the collapse of the Soviets' puppet government & the rise of the Taliban, or Somalia about 10 years ago would be analogies I might find more persuasive and appropriate.

Those would work too. Somalia, with its "warlords," each working through force of personality and his own ability to kill and punish fits well to me. The difference here is that, initially there was some semblance of unified government that was overthrown, resulting in wide-spread Chaos and violence. In the Abyss, there never was any unified government. That would be the major difference.

 

[barsoomcore]

Not there doesn't. All that is necessary is for you to get an someone to act on something that is not true. Self confidence and arrogance are factors in that, and there is plenty of that to go around in the abyss.

But you have to believe me when I tell you something. Even if I point behind you and say, "Look out!" you're only going to turn around and check if you think I'm at least trustworthy enough to not be de facto trying to fool you.

That's not very trustworthy, I'll admit, but the basic point is that deception is only possible if one party trusts the other. In fact, I'd almost define deception as gaining the trust of someone under false pretenses.

Since, if you have any brain at all, you KNOW that a demon is bound to betray you as soon as it suits him, why would you trust a thing he says? So how is he ever going to deceive you? If Graz'zt says, "Hey, don't go that way, there's a huge dragon down there!" My immediate response is to wonder why he doesn't want me to go down there. I KNOW he's not telling me just because he's concerned about my safety, so I immediately start looking for some other motive. He hasn't deceived me, and he certainly hasn't prevented me from going down there. The only way Graz'zt is ever going to be able to prevent anyone from doing anything is by lining them up with his fist and saying, "Do that and it's one-way to the moon, buddy!" Anyone who knows what he is, anyway.

Even if I look down the passage and see that, yep, there's a dragon there alright, I'm still going to try to figure out what it is he's trying to get me to do. I'm not going to just blindly wander down the other passage, thinking, "That Graz'zt, what a good guy."

A demon can not deceive other demons because demons don't trust each other. They have to control one another through pure physical force, and that means that nowadays there ought to be only one.

 

[kenjib]

I don't think anyone cut out social and/or political elements. However, it's the phyiscal/magical/psionic power that dominates the "politics" of The Abyss to a far greater degree than in the Nine Hells or Gehenna.

I disagree. It's just about power, any kind of power, and lots of it. Personal, physical, magical, psionic, political, tactical, diplomatic, economic, geographically strategic, insight into long term strategy, precogniscence, intimidation capability, guile, wile, experience, etc. You use every tool at your disposal to achieve your own personal goals. You don't care what you use, how it gets used, or if the ends justify the means. You do every possible thing you can to attain maximum personal power and selfish gain. If you can use someone else to your benefit, great. If serving someone else is the optimal way to attain your goals, great. If manipulating other people's self interest in order to get them to do the things you want them to do is the best strategy, great. If walking in yourself and giving a display of great personal power is the best thing to do, great. Anything and everything as long as it is effective.

Weak demons know that they can't stand alone. They must subsume some of their self interest in order to gain the substantial protection that a powerful demon lord provides or else they will get rolled over and exploited by those with more power, as there is no longer anything to stop such powerful enemies from doing so. They serve because it is in their self interest. If it is no longer in their self interest they will leave this relationship without a moment's hesitation and seize whatever power they can.

Many of these sources of power are not reflected in a stat block. If Gra'azt has maintained a power base similar to Demogorgon and Orcus, apparently he has an advantage in some of these undefined traits. His description as a lord of deception tends to reinforce this assertion.

Okay, so Gra'azt is not as physically powerful as Demogorgon, so obviously he's going to use means other than direct confrontation to combat him. If this is successful, he will be displaying his power and underlings will follow him to benefit from his power and protection. They don't care how he does it, as long as he gets it done. That's chaotic. Just obtain your goal by any means necessary.

I'll never buy the notion that physically beating someone down is the only way to enforce power. It's simply not a true statement. Any and all means. The results are what matter.

 

[kenjib]

Since, if you have any brain at all, you KNOW that a demon is bound to betray you as soon as it suits him, why would you trust a thing he says?

Because you believe, independently, that it is in the demon's self interest. Everything a demon says is not a lie. Everything they do is not a betrayal. That's just silly. Truth, lies, betrayal, trust -- these are all tools to be used. Both parties try to determine which tool is being used at the moment. At times, both parties benefit.

 

[barsoomcore]

Everything a demon says is not a lie. Everything they do is not a betrayal.

Well of course not. But anything they do may be a betrayal. You'll never know who else is competing for this demon's self-interest, so you'll never know when you're going to wake up and find that he's betrayed you. Why would you ally with such a creature? With a human being, we know that concepts like loyalty and love and honour occasionally at least impel their actions, so we have some justification for trusting that they aren't scheming to destroy us.

But I KNOW Graz'zt is scheming to destroy me. Of course he is. He will never allow me to become a threat to him -- and as soon as someone convinces him that it's possible my threat ratio has outstripped my usefulness, I'm gone. And I have no control over that. Even if I'm not a threat to him, he's still scheming to destroy me because one day I MIGHT be a threat to him.

And if he isn't, he's going to find himself smacked down by someone he didn't think was a threat. Only the most paranoid and the most powerful can survive in this environment, and that means eventually you've only got one, because the MOST paranoid, MOST powerful creature will simply destroy every other sentient creature as a potential threat.

Truth, lies, betrayal, trust -- these are all tools to be used.

Except among demons, because they don't trust each other and they don't tell the truth just because it's the truth. So we can't use that tool. All we have then are lies and betrayal -- both of which require that somebody trust us. Which they don't, so we don't have that option.

Try this: Graz'zt gives a command to a lithesome succubus, asking her to go off and see what Orcus is up to. Now the second that succubus is out of Graz'zt's sight, he has no reason to think she's not happily betraying him like mad. Given that she's Chaotic Evil, she probably is. Why would he believe a single thing she said upon her return? Why would he act upon that information unless he could independently confirm it for himself -- and if he could do that, he didn't need her in the first place. Except as tasteful decor, perhaps.

It doesn't make sense. That's okay, it doesn't have to to be fun, but it doesn't, and that's a fact.

 

[S'mon]

You use real world presedents? Are you telling me that you've visited the real Abyss? (Nevermind, I don't want to know)

West Belfast, The Abyss... close enough I'd say.