The "Bubble"

[AbdulAlhazred]

Out of curiosity... would it be better for those opposed to a lunge, if the charge rules (or an exception thereof) allowed you to charge someone that close, perhaps by first moving away a square to build up the momentum?

That is, if someone with at least speed 3 moved 1 away, then 2 back towards the target that started 1 square away, all as part of a charge action. Or perhaps by zigging sideways 1, then into the square between them. Thereby 'building up' momentum by still moving at least two, still using the standard action charge.

Not really. That just opens up a whole additional chapter of tactics nerfing. Really this is why I don't like lunge all that much either. The less constraints there are on what you can do, the less you need to bother to think about tactics. Lunge pretty much obsoletes several powers, the most obvious being the rogue's Deft Strike, which is a really nice advantage that rogues have currently.

If you want an argument as to why the bubble exists then it is easy to do.

Charging involves hurling yourself into the target at a pretty good clip in order to both create an opportunity to land a blow quickly and blow by the opponent's defense. Notice it is a basic attack, you don't get to do anything fancy because you don't have time, you're just slamming into the guy and beating at him.

Moving up carefully to attack someone takes time. You approach and employ your weapon in the most advantageous fashion, feinting, parrying, trying to get past his defenses and land that nasty blow. You get to use all your training to best advantage and it takes both your move and standard actions because its time consuming.

This proposed lunge simply falls in between, you don't have the room to get up the momentum to blow through the enemy's defenses, nor do you have the time to approach carefully and employ any kind of strategy. In any realistic sense if you are down on your butt the first thing you want to do is get up and reestablish your footing and defense. You don't rush in unbalanced, you take a couple of seconds to get up, collect yourself, and then figure out what to do next. Someone with specialized training can jump up and then move in to attack pretty quickly, like a rogue with Deft Strike, but it isn't a simple routine maneuver that anyone can perform successfully.

If you actually watch people fighting, say martial arts or armed combat ala SCA style, what you will pretty much see is exactly that, when someone is thrown, tripped, knocked back, etc. it isn't the combatant getting that treatment who is going to likely get the next significant action. More likely the attacker is going to quickly try to exploit the situation or else put a small distance between themselves and the down opponent and wait for them to engage again. These are tactics that are intended to wear down the enemy, seize control of the pace of the fight, and possibly create an opening for a decisive attack.

I think within the limits of turn based combat the existing rules capture that reasonably well. I don't think having lunge makes things more realistic, nor do I think it improves the game of combat.

 

[keterys]

Lunge pretty much obsoletes several powers, the most obvious being the rogue's Deft Strike, which is a really nice advantage that rogues have currently.

It really, really doesn't. Much like charging doesn't invalidate Deft Strike.

Charging involves hurling yourself into the target at a pretty good clip in order to both create an opportunity to land a blow quickly and blow by the opponent's defense. Notice it is a basic attack, you don't get to do anything fancy because you don't have time, you're just slamming into the guy and beating at him.

Sure - but I _think_ (and I'm not doublechecking) the Lunge houserule someone proposed above was just like a charge (basic attack, etc) but losing the +1 due to not having enough momentum. So it covers that angle.

And, again, this same situation covers someone being dazed where someone is vulnerable to counterattack if they continue to stand next to the dazed person -or- if they move back (2+) from the dazed person, but not if they take a single step back. There's no option to crawl over and attack. No option to move weirdly. It's simply a dead zone wherein if you're dazed you are potentially completely unable to fight. You can't even ready an attack.

 

[RCanine]

Here's my challenge to anyone who doesn't like the idea of a "lunge":

Without referring to game balance or other rules-based arguments, give me one good and consistent* reason why a creature who is able to stand still and make an attack, or a move certain distance (in this case, 10 feet) and make an attack should be unable to move a shorter distance (in this case, 5 feet) and make the same attack.

Easy: the momentum of the charge is part of what makes the attack dangerous. You're basically throwing yourself at your opponent, probably roaring a battle cry, and part of defending against a charge is also absorbing the weight of the attacker. IMHO, this should be emphasized: I would house rule that if you hit with a bull rush, you can drop prone as a free action and pull your opponent prone as well.

That said, in fencing, a long lunge is a risky maneuver, because it puts you off balance and makes it more difficult to defend yourself. My issue with the "lunge" is that there's no penalty to it. I wouldn't mind it as a house rule, but if added I think it should come with a penalty: probably either grant combat advantage or a -2 to all defenses (i.e. where CA would stack). That way you're not getting a free lunge, you're giving up a little defense to get a little range.

Also no one seems to mention how unbalancing this is for defenders to have. Being able to keep away from a fighter or warden when you're marked by them is a huge benefit, and "The Bubble" is the key way of defeating it. Allowing the prone fighter or warden to easily beat the bubble means you're basically stuck pounding on them again, which is not what the monster wants to do. The -2 penalty to attack isn't that big of a deal when attacking something squishy, but extra the pounding you take by making it easier for the fighter to get adjacent is a big deal, and *that* is what makes the lunge unbalanced.

 

[keterys]

The prone warden or fighter can get adjacent again just fine, by crawling. Or even having an ally come stand on them so they get a free shift... so I imagine the only reason the monster thinks "The Bubble" is the key to defeating a warden or fighter is because it's effectively a loophole in the tactical situations. One that won't affect the _tons_ of wardens who use a reach weapon... well, unless they do it by being at reach 2, then shifting back to reach 3, but then the Warden can't charge because of using a reach weapon, so would have to do it with a gauntlet or something. Which is... interesting...

I wish we could know if the situation was a purposeful / intentional tactic in the system, or a byproduct of just what's available.

 

[Fanaelialae]

One that won't affect the _tons_ of wardens who use a reach weapon... well, unless they do it by being at reach 2, then shifting back to reach 3, but then the Warden can't charge because of using a reach weapon, so would have to do it with a gauntlet or something. Which is... interesting...

Technically, the bubble doesn't exist against an opponent with reach. "With a reach weapon you can attack enemies that are 2 squares away from you as well as adjacent enemies, with no attack penalty."

If the enemy is adjacent and shifts back, he's still within the Warden's reach. If the enemy also has reach and starts 1 square away when he dazes/knocks prone the Warden, then shifts back, the Warden can just stand and charge him because he's now 2 squares away.

Also, in response to an earlier post; yes, Lunge has all the limitations of a Charge (basic attack only, last action unless you spend an AP, etc.), except that it doesn't get the +1 to hit and only allows 1 square of movement. I also note that it isn't considered a Charge (because I'm of the opinion that it might make some Charge-related powers a little too good).

In part, it's the fact that the bubble so extremely situational (opponent doesn't have reach, ranged attack, etc.) that makes me feel like it is merely an exploitable oversight in the rules. I've got no problems with anyone who wants to play RAW, but IMO the bubble isn't a clever tactic, it's just cheese.

 

[ChaosMage]

Technically, the bubble doesn't exist against an opponent with reach. "With a reach weapon you can attack enemies that are 2 squares away from you as well as adjacent enemies, with no attack penalty."

If the enemy is adjacent and shifts back, he's still within the Warden's reach. If the enemy also has reach and starts 1 square away when he dazes/knocks prone the Warden, then shifts back, the Warden can just stand and charge him because he's now 2 squares away.

Actually, if you're two squares back from an opponent with reach (just outside of their reach), they can't charge you; charges don't end adjacent, they end in the nearest square you can attack from. If the nearest square they can attack from is only one square away, they can't attack since charges have to be at least two squares. So the bubble exists for everyone; it's just further away for reach enemies.

 

[FireLance]

Charging involves hurling yourself into the target at a pretty good clip in order to both create an opportunity to land a blow quickly and blow by the opponent's defense. Notice it is a basic attack, you don't get to do anything fancy because you don't have time, you're just slamming into the guy and beating at him.

Moving up carefully to attack someone takes time. You approach and employ your weapon in the most advantageous fashion, feinting, parrying, trying to get past his defenses and land that nasty blow. You get to use all your training to best advantage and it takes both your move and standard actions because its time consuming.

This proposed lunge simply falls in between, you don't have the room to get up the momentum to blow through the enemy's defenses, nor do you have the time to approach carefully and employ any kind of strategy. In any realistic sense if you are down on your butt the first thing you want to do is get up and reestablish your footing and defense. You don't rush in unbalanced, you take a couple of seconds to get up, collect yourself, and then figure out what to do next. Someone with specialized training can jump up and then move in to attack pretty quickly, like a rogue with Deft Strike, but it isn't a simple routine maneuver that anyone can perform successfully.

This is basically the momentum argument again, except that it ignores the case of standing up and attacking. However, it is still not a satisfying argument because characters who can effectively move at twice the speed of "normal" characters still need to move the same distance before being able to make an attack (an elf with the Fast Runner and Fleet-Footed feats moves at a speed of 10 while charging in light armor, twice as fast as a dwarf or gnome in light armor; magic can further increase the speed difference). If momentum was key, shouldn't such characters be able to make an attack after moving a shorter distance?

 

[Turtlejay]

The "Flank"

We have had this issue crop up constantly in our games. You will be fighting an enemy, and one of the other enemies will move behind you. Did you know doing this gives them +2 to hit? It counts as Combat Advantage! Luckily our DM has allowed us to begin this 'flank' maneuver so it seems fair. I have been considering a houserule where once you are flanked you can shift as a free action. I mean, it is totally not fair *or* realistic to be flanked! What do you think?

/sarcasm

This is a legitimate tactic. It forces the victim to do something different, whether that is charge a different opponent or use a less ideal ranged or reach attack. House rule it in your game if you like, but don't suggest that it is broken and an oversight.

Jay

 

[Fanaelialae]

Actually, if you're two squares back from an opponent with reach (just outside of their reach), they can't charge you; charges don't end adjacent, they end in the nearest square you can attack from. If the nearest square they can attack from is only one square away, they can't attack since charges have to be at least two squares. So the bubble exists for everyone; it's just further away for reach enemies.

That hadn't occurred to me. Still, you could easily sidestep that by charging the enemy using an unarmed attack (which is still pretty handy for a reach-weapon wielding defender, particularly for a fighter). You are less likely to hit, and even if you do you won't deal much damage, but so long as you keep the guy marked, what do you (the fighter) really care?

The above is just another example of how the bubble generates too much weirdness for my tastes.

YMMV

 

[keterys]

The "flank" is clearly an intended aspect of the system. That's why I'd like to know if it _is_ an intended aspect, or an oversight.

I'd also hope that no matter what solution someone does, it is universally applied for both PCs and monsters.

And I do think the problem is much more serious for the dazed situation, than the prone one. So many options while prone, so few while dazed...