The Cascading Attack Against Large Creatures

[KarinsDad]

Just wanted to share a tactic that came up in our game recently so that other players (and DMs) can take advantage of it.

My psion used Metamorphosis to change into a large troll recently, so in order to avoid any Attacks of Opportunity due to reach, the DM in our group had the NPCs do the following tactic (where p and multiple p's are my psion and a through d are the foes):

a .
. .
. p


a .
p p
p p


b
a .
p p
p p


a b
p p
p p


c
a b
p p
p p


. c
a b
p p
p p


a b c
p p
p p


d
a b c
p p
p p


. d
a b c
p p
p p


. . d
a b c
p p
p p


a b c d
p p
p p


a b c
p p d
p p


Since foe a was within 5 feet of my character, each additional foe was able to move in behind him and then shift in 5 feet. Since they had soft cover from the other closer foes, I could never get an Attack of Opportunity.

I had not particularly thought of this earlier, but it seems like a good tactic to get close to large creatures and prevent them from AoOing.

 

[Voadam]

Just wanted to share a tactic that came up in our game recently so that other players (and DMs) can take advantage of it.

My psion used Metamorphosis to change into a large troll recently, so in order to avoid any Attacks of Opportunity due to reach, the DM in our group had the NPCs do the following tactic (where p and multiple p's are my psion and a through d are the foes):

Since foe a was within 5 feet of my character, each additional foe was able to move in behind him and then shift in 5 feet. Since they had soft cover from the other closer foes, I could never get an Attack of Opportunity.

I had not particularly thought of this earlier, but it seems like a good tactic to get close to large creatures and prevent them from AoOing.

Is each of those glimpses a full round?

The +4 cover bonus was enough for you not to hit on your AoO?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Having cover from someone negates the AoO. That said, I don't agree that it does provide cover against an opponent with reach. The smaller creatures might (I'd argue that they in fact do) be considered low obstacles, which means that they [a,b, and c] do not provide cover [from p].

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There's one hang-up that you didn't seem to consider:

Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

So, in your examples at least, D's out of luck, as C doesn't provide cover from your bottom-right-hand square.

 

[Markn]

Check each corner

There's one hang-up that you didn't seem to consider:



So, in your examples at least, D's out of luck, as C doesn't provide cover from your bottom-right-hand square.

If I'm not mistaken (and sometime I am ) you check each corner of the oppenents square and if any corner is blocked then they get cover. If that is true, then even the bottom-right-hand corner has to go through cover.

Edit - Oh and I should add that when a large creature attacks in melee (with reach) cover is determined as if he is making a ranged attack at that opponent.

 

[Voadam]

for reference

COVER
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.
Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.
Cover and Hide Checks: You can use cover to make a Hide check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Hide check.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.
Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Varying Degrees of Cover: In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If I'm not mistaken (and sometime I am ) you check each corner of the oppenents square and if any corner is blocked then they get cover. If that is true, then even the bottom-right-hand corner has to go through cover.

No, you're right. I had it drawn slightly differently in my head. Only one of D's corners qualifies as having cover (his top left, C's top right), and therefore all of D counts as having cover when he leaves his last square.

Edit - Oh and I should add that when a large creature attacks in melee (with reach) cover is determined as if he is making a ranged attack at that opponent.

Yep - it actually applies to any attack made against a nonadjacent target (whether that happens because of weapon reach, natural reach, or ranged weapon use).

 

[KarinsDad]

There's one hang-up that you didn't seem to consider:

So, in your examples at least, D's out of luck, as C doesn't provide cover from your bottom-right-hand square.

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

...

When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

So, picking any of the corners of the lower right square of the troll will result in a line that goes through square c when drawing that line to the northwest corner of square d.

Hence, d gets cover from c.


Edit: Sorry for the late post on this, I had it written up and then got distracted for a few hours at work.

 

[Markn]

Clearer writeup

For what its worth, whenever they do a new edition I hope they make the cover rules a little more clearer. It takes a bit to wrap your head around the 'wordiness' explanation they use. In my estimation, less than half the groups out there use the proper rules.

 

[Jarrod]

Yeah, some things would just be better as logic statements...

Here's my best shot. Can someone tell me if I'm at all right?

BTW, "clear line" means "line that doesn't go through anyone else's square, etc."

So, the cover rule for large creatures looks like such: if you cannot pick a corner of your square such that you have a clear line to all of their corners, they have cover.

You get to pick your best corner (you don't need all to be clear), but they get to pick theirs as well (AKA the worst for you).

That actually makes some "realism" sense... you can go to any of your corners to attack, but they can try to hide.

It definitely makes reach less useful though.