The Cascading Attack Against Large Creatures

[Markn]

Tricky situations

In some cases it is less useful. Consider this:

If a PC is standing in a doorway (medium PC in a 10' wide door) and is attacking around the corner into a room, the enemy has cover. See diagram below and hopefully it makes sense.

If a large PC is standing in the same doorway and attacks around the corner (in melee) then the enemy does NOT have cover because his attack is treated as a ranged attack and not a melee attack. So in this instance, reach is advantageous.

_____x ______
E

Edit: For some reason the picture is not showing correctly. The E should be 1 space down and 1 space to the right of X so as to be just under the line.

 

[KarinsDad]

In some cases it is less useful. Consider this:

If a PC is standing in a doorway (medium PC in a 10' wide door) and is attacking around the corner into a room, the enemy has cover. See diagram below and hopefully it makes sense.

If a large PC is standing in the same doorway and attacks around the corner (in melee) then the enemy does NOT have cover because his attack is treated as a ranged attack and not a melee attack. So in this instance, reach is advantageous.

_x ______
E

When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Since he is adjacent to you, even if you are a large creature, the melee rules are used instead.

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall).

 

[Markn]

oops

Since he is adjacent to you, even if you are a large creature, the melee rules are used instead.

Interesting...I think I missed the part about being adjascent to you. My bad.

 

[Felnar]

am i wrong?
did foes a, b, c, & d spend one round moving into position,
then 5ft step in on their next turn?

isnt that a big waste of their turns?
wouldnt it be better for them to suck up one AoO (unless the psion has Combat Reflexes) and each get to make an attack?

four attacks for one AoO seems like a good trade

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, they don't move up and then 5' step.

They move up from outside the threatened area of the monster.

They don't provoke on their final step into striking position because the square they are leaving has cover; leaving a threatened area provokes, and entering a threatened area does not.

 

[frankthedm]

Have the players used this trick before or similar "rules legal, eyebrow raising" tricks? If they do, then more power to the DM. if not, just be ready to pull this on the DM.

Perchance this was in responce to a previous rules disagreement. maybe troll related?

I prefer measuring distaces, like from earliest 3.0 [tordek threatenig dire rats illo], kills all sorts of silliness

 

[KarinsDad]

Have the players used this trick before or similar "rules legal, eyebrow raising" tricks? If they do, then more power to the DM. if not, just be ready to pull this on the DM.

Perchance this was in responce to a previous rules disagreement. maybe troll related?

No.

The DM is just rules savvy and took advantage of the situation.

It didn't bother me either. Combat is fun for me and if someone comes up with something cool in combat, I get enjoyment out of it even if it was at my character's expense.


Besides, for real cheese, try the following to your DM when fighting a large (or larger) creature with reach:

1) Situation: you need to heal a fallen comrade, but both he and you are in reach of the creature.

2) Start moving away. Most DMs who do not know this trick will have the creature take an Attack of Opportunity against you.

3) Change direction and move back to the fallen comrade.

4) Heal him. Most creatures are not capable of Combat Reflexes or Grapples or Trips (and even if capable of grapples or trips, the first gut reaction of most DMs is to do damage), hence, the character might take damage, but he has a good chance of auto-succeeding on his cure spell (against most creatures and most DMs).


However, once a DM learns this trick, watch out!

 

[KarinsDad]

am i wrong?
did foes a, b, c, & d spend one round moving into position,
then 5ft step in on their next turn?

isnt that a big waste of their turns?
wouldnt it be better for them to suck up one AoO (unless the psion has Combat Reflexes) and each get to make an attack?

four attacks for one AoO seems like a good trade

They did all of their movement with a single move action and then attacked with a standard action, all in one round, just like normal.

 

[frankthedm]

Besides, for real cheese, try the following to your DM when fighting a large (or larger) creature with reach:

1) Situation: you need to heal a fallen comrade, but both he and you are in reach of the creature.

2) Start moving away. Most DMs who do not know this trick will have the creature take an Attack of Opportunity against you.

3) Change direction and move back to the fallen comrade.

4) Heal him. Most creatures are not capable of Combat Reflexes or Grapples or Trips (and even if capable of grapples or trips, the first gut reaction of most DMs is to do damage), hence, the character might take damage, but he has a good chance of auto-succeeding on his cure spell (against most creatures and most DMs).

However, once a DM learns this trick, watch out!

You must deal with real slow witted DMs.

It is a viable tactic, dropping you guard to get your foe to lunge at you. It is also real good if the person taking the AoO wants to try to grapple. It the d20 HP system that makes it crazy good.

It really backfires when the DM uses the attacking with reach = no AoO's without equal reach rules interpretation. tripping, sundering, grappling are REAL nice options for those situations. I am from the 'It has to bring something into your threat to damage" camp, so trying that IMG still means the creature or weapon will be risking damage.

 

[Felnar]

oh i see it now, how d moved tripped me up.
c just barely blocks the straight line to one corner.
its just another issue with the "square grid" and the cover mechanics
example, a b & c are foes with reach weapons, the P's are the 10x10 character

b c . .
a . . .
. . P P
. . P P

under RAW, foe b has soft cover against P's attacks, while P doesnt have soft cover against b's attacks. Sucks to be P.

i wonder how it would work on a hex-grid