D&D 5E The Challenge Rating Goldilocks Thread- Too Hot, Too Cold, or Just Right?

[Iry]

I don't use it in general, since my monster tactics generate wildly different results. But I do use it to generate random encounters, just to stretch my improv muscles and see how I can fit strangeness into the narrative.

"Two gnomes? Here? Oookay. They are... lost spice traders arguing about which way to go."
"A minotaur? Here? She's a grizzled veteran who uses a longbow, having long since learned the dangers of charging in like her younger kin."

 

[Tazawa]

Answered 1 but really between 1 and 3. I find it works best as a guideline.

It also works better with 6-8 medium to hard encounters a day. If you use it to prepare 1-2 deadly encounters a day, it becomes much less useful. If you want to have a single big battle against a boss monster, it’s best to do a quick play test and then adjust. Boss monsters should always have legendary actions, saves, or something similar. Minions aren’t always enough when characters focus fire.

I think the effective XP multipliers for multiple monsters is a little excessive. It should take into account the number of characters in a party. Large parties decimate solo creatures—there should probably be a reduction in effective XP for solo creatures versus parties of 5 or more.

 

[Tazawa]

Online encounter generators like KFC don’t actually follow the CR system. They don’t ignore additional monsters significantly below the average CR when determining the effective CR multiplier. This artificially inflates the deadliness of the encounter, making it seem more difficult than it actually will be.

These encounter generators are still very useful tools but you need to be aware of their limitations and make adjustments.

 

[ad_hoc]

Four 6th level players fought Strahd

But what did Strahd do? Fisticuffs?

Strahd is a completely unfair enemy. The party has very little they can actually do about him unless they find the Tarroka reading room. He can come and go at will and the PC's have his entire castle to worry about as he is harassing them.

Now, if instead, Strahd walks up to them and tries to punch them then yes, he's going to lose.

The book advises the DM how to use him and tells the DM to play unfair. This is Strahd's domain. He knows the PC's strengths and weaknesses. He knows where they are. He is the land. He is the ultimate terror.

That doesn't mean that CR is broken.

This sort of thing comes up a lot in these conversations.

How the enemy creatures are played is very important. CR is there as a warning sign of how potent these creatures can be.

In a similar conversation a person said the CR system is broken because their 1st or 2nd level PCs wiped out the entire Drow compound at the beginning of Out of the Abyss.

If the DM wants the players to win, they will win, regardless of the CR. That doesn't make CR broken.

 

[Shiroiken]

I don't use CR, but that's because I'm old school and design the world without the PCs in mind.

The problem with any type of CR type system is that it will always have cracks and flaws that can create some serious issues. In both 3E and in 4E, one mathematician DM I know abused the system to create ridiculous challenges that were "fair" by the CR system, but were obvious TPK bait. Conversely, he showed how you could create ridiculous CRs that were super easy to overcome. These are obviously examples of a DM abusing the system, but it shows that an inexperienced DM that relies on them can accidentally create unbalanced encounters.

 

[dave2008]

I am a little confused by this poll @lowkey13. CR and encounter design are not the same thing. It seems like this poll is really about encounter design and not CR. CR is just a relative measurement of a monster's fighting ability. As such it works fine to determine how powerful on creature is to another. However, the real issue is how the encounter guidelines don't allow for flexibility for different style of play.

For example, I run two groups and in one group the encounter guidelines work just fine by RAW. In the other group not so much. However, with groups the CR provided is equally as useful, I just have to understand how to tweak the encounter budget for the two groups.

IME, people often say CR is "whack" or "groken" because the encounter guidelines don't work for them, but that is fault of the encounter guidelines, not the CR.

 

[dave2008]

The party did so much damage so quickly (170+ points in one round), that it didn't matter if it had regeneration, spell-like abilities, or what.

Wow, my 5th level party of 5-6 PCs could only muster about half of that. That just goes to show how varied groups can be, and how and encounter guide should really discuss how to adjust for these differences.

 

[GreyLord]

I have found Challenge Ratings to be a useful guideline.

And, that's what they are - a guideline.

I think most of the issues folks find around CR to be not in CR, but in how to properly use guidelines to best effect.

This is the option that I was looking for. This is most akin to what I use CR to do. I use it as guidelines to create encounters, but not something so strict that it cant' be stretched or made to accommodate the game that I am running.

 

[dave2008]

Four 6th level players fought Strahd and his special friend from Strahd Must Die Again.

I might add there were no fireballs and the players did not have the “good items that could be found” no spoilers.

Strahd died his friend magicked up an escape. No casualties on the PC side.

Strahd is allegedly CR 15 and legendary. His vile compatriot CR?? (Yes that is double digits.)

PC’s Fighter, Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer no fireball and no Radiant Damage Spells. The Bard was charmed from the word go.
So three on three.

Team Bad Guys HP total 250+ And regen. Spells 5th and higher.

Good guys HP total about 100 with some healing no regen. Spells 3rd and lower.

So CR is in no way connected to the reality of the game.

Too many fiddly bits and RNG and skill gap make it fail routinely.

Sounds like you went easy on them. I buffed Strahd to CR 17 and wiped out a group of 6 level 10 PCS with him. He is an absolute beast in his castle, if you want him to be.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I use CR just as a guide, too. But, then again, I’ve learned over the years that I don’t need to - and shouldn’t really try to - balance every encounter. Keep the players on their toes. Sometimes a combat is going to be very easy, which might lead to some Player paranoia about why it was so easy. And sometimes they’ll suffer casualties including PC death, which leads to players thinking about future tactics. Saves prep time, too, as I just try to build interesting encounters that are pertinent to the story and implicitly encourage solutions that are not always just swordswingfireball.

TL;DR: Balance schmalance