The choice to be raised from the dead

[Hardhead]

Upper Planes: It definitly depends on the person. Even though Mt. Celestia is a wonderful place, if you have a wife you miss, or children you think still need guidence, or a duty you feel strongly about, you'll probably want to come back. Someone that goes to Arcadia, or the Seven Heavens, or to a lesser extent Bytopia is probably going to be the kind of person that feels strong comtiments (being generally lawful and good). On the other hand, you may have been an old dwarven man in your life, unable to still fight orcs and goblins as your god Clanggedin Silverbeard would have wanted. Now, in his realm in Arcadia, you're perfectly happy to continue so again, in Silverbeard's endless assaults on Acheron.

Or what if you're good, but neutral or chaotic? Though chaotics and neutrals can still have strong senses of duty, it's less common among them as it is among lawfuls. But still people might miss their loved ones, or want to avenge an unjust death. However, your average peasant will probably find the afterlife more to his liking than the living world. The Upper Planes are generally good places to live, and those that are full of battle and danger exist only to give people that are good a place to enjoy in the afterlife. Sure, the residents of Mt. Clanggedin might fight a lot, but they also have big victory celebrations. They "live out" some of the best parts of war.

Whatever your appropriate afterlife, if you're on the Upper Planes, you probably like it better than being a peasant or a petty merchant. Even a king or a general probably likes being close to his god, if he were a True Believer.


The planes of conflict (neutrality) are a bit different. Very few are truely neutral in regards to good/evil. They are Mechanus, Limbo, and the Outlands. The ohters are at least tinged with a morality, like Ysgard, which is mainly chaotic, but a slightly good, or Acheron, which is mainly lawful but a bit evil. Some of these kind of blur the edges. Arcadia is a "border" plane in this regard, but is a rather nice place. Ysgard is also a border good plane, but isn't very nice at all, unless you just love battle. (Remember, you get deposited on the plane most closely matching your alignment if you don't worship a god. Though I'd make exceptions every now and then, a chaotic person that was only marginally good is going to get dumped on Ysgard, even if they weren't generally battle-prone). Acheron is livable as a border plane, but Pandemonium is downright horrible. Unless you're insane, you're going to hate it (though you'll go insane quick enough).

Mechanus is a very nice place if you're into law and order. Limbo is the same way if you're a chaos-lover. The Outlands, being the meeting place of all the planes, has a bit of everything. Every soul that was neutral can find a place to his liking there. So as far as the neutral planes go, it depends on the plane and the person. Who wouldn't want a rescue from Pandeomonium? But on the other hand, a resident of Acheron may enjoy the senseless slaughter.

As for the Lower Planes, I doubt anyone would want to hang out there, if they didn't worship a god, and weren't particularly powerful in life. Pretty much everyone ends up in a sorry state. If you're a Gray Waste larva, a Nine Hells lemure or a Abyssal dretch your life sucks. You may one day become a Pit Fiend, but it ain't gonna be soon. Assumedly, Ghereleths and Yugoloths have similar larval states as well (though the Yugoloth topic is hotly debated!). Either way, life in the Lower Planes generally sucks. On the other hand, if you were faithful to your God, he might have a nice afterlife for you. Did you worship Set and do a damn good job of it in life? He may make you into a Minion of Set, in which case you're practically in paradise with your newfound powers. Are you now a proxy of Loviatar? Inflicting pain on all the lesser worshipers is a great afterlife for you!

So, again, it depends. This time it depends on if they worshiped a god, what plane they went to, and waht their predilection in life was.

 

[Pyrex]

Don't forget that not only must the soul be willing to return, it must also be free to return.

I've typically taken that bitto mean that the god of whichever plane you soul is currently residing on can prevent you from being raised.

 

[Elrik_DarkFury]

Most of existing religions indicate that there is afterlife.However heaven or hell have been described throught time with different colours and their existance has not been proved.Thus,we live our lives and think/act in a certain way under this constant(there may be afterlife but we are not so sure about that).In a campaign setting however the existance of afterlife has been proved.People have come back from the dead-died to tell the tale,and a mid-level cleric or wizard with a few ranks in religion or knowledge(planes) respectively know all this stuff you talked about(outer/lower planes,limbo etc.).Shouldn't this knowledge affect the way way people see their lives? The common person wouldn't care so much about dying,as long as he had lived a life assuring a trip after his death to a nice afterlife place.

____________________

The Wizard

 

[random user]

I think that most people return for one reason:

It's not yet their time to die.

That might mean they feel they have more to contribute to the present world, or responsibilities they have not yet fulfilled, friendships where you haven't said your final goodbyes, or perhaps cities you have not yet conquered, enemies you haven't yet avenged, evils you have not yet committed.

This gets a bit into the philosophical, and into a philosophy that not everyone agrees with I'm sure. But my personal belief is that characters who come back to life have something they have not yet fulfilled. Those people who die prematurely may still be in paradise, but in the back of their minds, they will always remember they did not achieve what they were meant to achieve while they were alive, and that will always temper their demeanor. So while they physically may be in heaven/paradise etc, their mental state is not quite there.

So the person who loves war, while they are in battle which they love, will think "It's a shame I was never able to defeat my arch enemy while I was still alive."

The person who is surrounded by beautiful women, will think "I never got a chance to properly say goodbye to my wife."

The person who is able to torment his underlings will think, "They will never associate my name with terror in the previous world."

etc etc

Just my 2cp

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Evil folks tend to want to return to life to escape the hell (especially as they typically start at the bottom of the food chain in the Lower Planes).

Evil Deity: So tell me, Mr. Larva... Yer friends be callin' yer arse back to the Prime. Interested?

Larva: Squirm squirm squirm...

Evil Deity: No, seriously... Friends, wife, kids... Interested?

Larva: Squirm squirm squirm...

Evil Deity: Hey, I must run one heck of a place. None of these mindless maggots ever wants to leave.

Larve: Squirm squirm squirm...

Evil Deity: I knew you'd say that, but thank you anyways.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's an interesting idea but I'd be wary about doing something that would drastically impact the possible explanations of cosmic justice and/or Theodicy (in whatever way that idea can be relevant to a polytheistic world with avowedly evil deities). Sooner or later, you will be faced with the question of what happens to the good paladin who was assassinated and returns to face the evil only he can stop--is he then condemned to hell or limbo or wherever (again assuming that condemned is the right word since that implies a just ordering of the afterlife where evil is punished and good rewarded which may not be the case if the potentates of evil actually RUN the places to which they and their faithful followers are condemned; the sense I get of the assumed planescape and FR cosmoi is that the evil aren't actually condemned to their fate as much as they are the lawful prey of evil outsiders and evil is not confined, condemned or defeated, but rather has some kind of general truce with good).

And if the answer is yes, such an individual is to be punished for doing what is right, the question will naturally arise as to why the universe is ordered that way and why the purportedly good gods, celestials, and PCs put up with it. (And "they don't" is certainly a possible answer followed with some kind of a plotline loosely analogous to the Christian story of the harrowing of hell (except, of course, instead of extending forgiveness to the guilty who accept it, the Christ figures in the game-world harrowing of hell are probably rescuing the worthy who are suffering for righteousness)).

That's not to say it's a bad idea--just that if has profound implications for the moral and metaphysical structure of a campaign world and that those may be incompatible with elements of the assumed D&D cosmology (for instance, I can't imagine a cosmopolitan Sigil remaining unchanged in such a world).

I'm suddenly tempted to say that when you die, you go to heaven -- but if you voluntarily leave, that place in heaven will be denied you. So adventurers have to decide: eternal paradise, or possible damnation followed by a few more brief years alive?

 

[Piratecat]

KidCthulhu suggests a better alternative; that if you voluntarily give up your place in heaven, you are forced to earn a new one by being reborn the next time your soul would normally ascend. In other words, if you leave heaven, it's reincarnation time.

 

[Olive]

Oh, some cool ideas!

I had missed the bit about 'free and willing'. So I guess if you end up in Carcerai, then the 'free' bit goes out the window...

 

[thundershot]

This is definitely a most interesting thread... Lots of ideas, especially since resurrection is not currently possible in my campaign (things got frelled up when Tharizdun was freed, and the gods went to war). I'll have to ponder this...



Chris

 

[Tessarael]

6am thoughts ...

What about purgatory? Why are the good souls going to heaven immediately? I'm sure they committed their share of sins in their life. Several centuries in purgatory should give them enough time to purify themselves, before eventually ascending.

Similarly, maybe people are brought back only when there is something unfinished. If the death was peaceful or "successful" (e.g. helping defeat the big bad guy), maybe you don't get to come back. If you were murdered in your sleep by an assassin ... oh yes, perhaps you get to come back, and perhaps you get to come back with a real vengeance too (either roleplaying or mech-wise). Could be fun. Also gives more reasons for a DM to bring people back from a TPK ... ah yes, terribly violent wasted death ... most unfortunate ... hmmm vengeance, hateful souls ... yes, the undead templates do look quite appropriate - for long enough to take out the BBEG and exact the players' revenges anyway.

Just my thoughts ...