The Chronicles of Narnia

[Mark Chance]

The problem is that his sensibilities were largely derived from the society in which he lived, which was nominally Christian. Thus, he chose Christianity because he felt it was the "most good" religion, but his opinion was basically predetermined.

There's an unsupportable claim. According to Lewis himself, he became Christian not because he was "predetermined" to be Christian, but because, after years of research and reflection, he shed his anti-Christian worldview and adopted a Christian worldview. His atheism preceded his Christianity, and was only gradually replaced by Christianity. IOW, right or wrong, Lewis did not become Christian because it was the "culturally acceptable" thing to do, but because he was honestly convinced that Christianity is the most true system of belief. Lewis's writings bear this out, for he often claimed that the only reason to believe anything is because it is true rather than fashionable.

It seems that, in an effort to paint Lewis as some sort of thoughtless Christian yes-man, you've put the cart before the horse.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

There's an unsupportable claim. According to Lewis himself, he became Christian not because he was "predetermined" to be Christian, but because, after years of research and reflection, he shed his anti-Christian worldview and adopted a Christian worldview.

You're missing my point: he chose Christianity because it best matched his sense of what was right, and his sense of what was right was derived from a society profoundly influenced by Christianity.

IOW, right or wrong, Lewis did not become Christian because it was the "culturally acceptable" thing to do, but because he was honestly convinced that Christianity is the most true system of belief. Lewis's writings bear this out, for he often claimed that the only reason to believe anything is because it is true rather than fashionable.

I've read his account of his conversion. He believed that some things were inherently wrong, and concluded that religions that mandated or tolerated those things must not be true. He also concluded that Christianity was the most right because it best matched his intuitions.

But his sense of rightness and wrongness was derived from the society he grew up in. And that society was nominally Christian. The whole process was nothing more than an ethical short-circuit. His standards were derived from the faith that his standards eventually led him to choose.

 

[Rhialto]

I suppose I should point out that Lewis started out an Anglican Christian, became an atheist as a teenager, then converted back to the Church of England in middle-age.

In other words, what Wrath of the Swarm is saying has merit.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

interesting; i had a very different reaction. i liked Out of the Silent Planet, was a bit put off by Perelandra, and had to force myself to finish That Hideous Strength. the latter seemed especially heavy-handed and preachy to me.

I didn't like That Hideous Strength either. You can see a couple Tolkien influences there, and some other author whose name I can't remember. Tash's form seems remarkably similar to a vrocks. I doubt Gygax got them from Lewis, so are they both based on a real myth? I have heard that someone's making some new Narnia movies. On the Pullman thing, I know too many people like him who reject Christianity out of hand. It makes me sad.

 

[S'mon]

He does seem to imply that Islam is not only wrong, but delusionally worships demons.

BTW it's explicitly stated in The Last Battle that good Calormenes who think they're worshipping Tash (the Ahriman/Satan figure) are really worshipping Aslan, whereas bad Narnians who think they're worshipping Aslan (the Christ/Ormazd figure) are really worshipping Tash.

(Edited to correct it).

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

BTW it's explicitly stated in The Last Battle that good Calormenes who think they're worshipping Tash (the Ahriman/Satan figure) are really worshipping Aslan, whereas bad Narnians who think they're worshipping Aslan (the Christ/Ormazd figure) are really worshipping Tash.

Yes. I find this even more offensive, since it obviates accepting that "good" people can follow a different religion and still be good. There's no need to explain it - they're simply following the one true religion and don't know it! Praise Jesus!

Anyway, while I've liked the fantasy elements in the Chronicles of Narnia, I never liked what I perceived to be the heavy-handed religious elements, and as I grow older the more obvious and unpleasant they become.

Tolkien did an excellent job of creating a story that happened to reflect his beliefs, while Lewis disguised propaganda for his beliefs with an excellent story. The first is a far superior writer for just this reason, IMO.

Pullman also grates on me, although he has some nice ideas.

 

[mmadsen]

I find this even more offensive, since it obviates accepting that "good" people can follow a different religion and still be good. There's no need to explain it - they're simply following the one true religion and don't know it! Praise Jesus!

Huh? In Lewis's Narnian theology, the trappings don't matter. If you're good, it doesn't matter whether you nominally worship Aslan or Tash; you're Good.

 

[nikolai]

it's explicitly stated in The Last Battle that good Calormenes who think they're worshipping Tash (the Ahriman/Satan figure) are really worshipping Aslan, whereas bad Narnians who think they're worshipping Aslan (the Christ/Ormazd figure) are really worshipping Tash.

and:

In Lewis's Narnian theology, the trappings don't matter. If you're good, it doesn't matter whether you nominally worship Aslan or Tash; you're Good.

I find this strange and it has me really puzzled. From what I (vaguely think I) know of Catholicism and Anglicanism (I forget which one of them Lewis followed); that's not what they say. It does matter which religion you worship and which god you follow, all the stuff about Jesus and salvation is very important. Given that Lewis was writing thinly veiled Christian allegory, and must have known the theology, I can't understand why he decided to make the switch. Does anyone know why?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I suppose I should point out that Lewis started out an Anglican Christian, became an atheist as a teenager, then converted back to the Church of England in middle-age.

In other words, what Wrath of the Swarm is saying has merit.

from his religious writings, by the way, I've never actually believed that claim. He went from being a casual christian, to a lapsed christian to a hard core christian, and from the hardcore perspective, confused his lapsed time with a strawman version of atheism. His own descriptions of the way he thought at the time don't describe atheism, but a rebellious member of his religion.

All religion aside, narnia didn't particularly grab me. My overall impression of Lewis is that he is a brillient wordsmith. He puts words together in beautiful ways that make whatever he is saying or describing seem abslutely perfect. Its a wonderful talent, and it will make his books worth reading on that level if no other. However, that doesn't make the content and context perfect, just lovely in their presentation. So you may end up enjoying the moments of reading them, but left with less than you might have gotten from a less prettily phrased novel. (this is actually very similar to my opionon of shakespeare, whose plays were mostly crap in the plot and message department, but damn poetic. )

Kahuna Burger

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I find this strange and it has me really puzzled. From what I (vaguely think I) know of Catholicism and Anglicanism (I forget which one of them Lewis followed); that's not what they say. It does matter which religion you worship and which god you follow, all the stuff about Jesus and salvation is very important. Given that Lewis was writing thinly veiled Christian allegory, and must have known the theology, I can't understand why he decided to make the switch. Does anyone know why?

I find that what you are describing it more of a hardcore protestant model. In my expereince, catholics (and probably anglicans, which is what lewis was (church of england) and is sort of catholics without the pope when it comes down to it) tend to fall more in the "good people don't go to hell, though they might not get to heaven right away" camp as opposed to the "saved by a direct act of faith, otherwise hellfire for you" school of thought.

Lewis did believe that his particular brand of belief just intrinsicly "made sense" (a headache inducing chapter of Mere Christianity is dedicated to the explaination of this) so the idea that good people, in spite of their upbringing would naturaly come to worship the "right way" could be consistent to him.

Kahuna Burger