The Citizen (now with example characters)

[Al]

I'd probably argue it's a spot on the weak side. The best correlation is that of the ranger, and the ranger gets more skill points, Animal Companions, favoured enemies and spells. Even if the fighter feats offset the Combat Style and favoured enemies, the ranger is still up a bit.

Perhaps you can add some high-level special abilities, like Slippery Mind, Evasion or similar?

 

[Frostmarrow]

I've always liked Skill Mastery. That might fit. Still, the stuff the ranger's got on the citizen is not very good in my opinion. The animal companion is too weak to make a difference, favored enemy (while pretty powerful) is ridiculous, and the spells of the ranger is, quite frankly, more bookkeeping than it's worth. If the citizen is weaker than the ranger because of these abilities then I can live with that.

Yet, this has been the main concern of all those who have studied the class so maybe I ought to listen? I'll give it some thought. The last thing I want to do is add uncanny dodge (or any other ability) that really belongs to some other class. -Hopefully I can come up with something than makes somebody else "live with" the class as well.

Oh yes. Favored enemy is ridiculous becuse our halfling ranger always says "Is it human?" when ever he is required to make a listen check...

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'm considering adding something along these lines:

Tools of The Trade: When using equipment that grants a bonus to a skill check citizens can count double the bonus. For example: An citizen who is using a magnifying glass to appraise a gem gets a +4 circumstance bonus on his appraise check instead of +2.

In The Know: A citizen hears lots of gossip, rumors and stories which helps them identify things from appearances only. They instinctively know the name of any item, creature, ship, castle, or other foreign thing. The citizen does not have any additional information about the subject, short of the appropriate knowledge-check. This ability is not infallible and the citizen can still be tricked or otherwise mislead.

Friends in High Places: Whenever a citizen uses the Profession skill to make a weekly wage, the citizen makes his skill check gold pieces per week, instead of the normal half.

 

[Likodan]

I certainly hope i'm not going to be the only one that likes this class as it is.

For one, this class offers(to me) a single 20 level class that fits a "townie" type character without mutli. classing to fighter/rogue and picking up a number of class features I won't really use much.

The Citizen has a BAB that'll let it hit as often as any other martial char. Tenderfoot makes it dependant on others to operate in the wilds, thus encouaging him/her to keep to the town or roads if travel is needed. Unless in a party of course. That's a fitting drawback in my opinion. It's skill is wide & appropreate. So is access to all simple & martial weapons. Bonus feats allow greater customing, which can be done so as seen fit. And who wouldn't want a martial char. with a good Will save?

More class abilties seen like extra baggae to me.

However, I do agree that it should only have access to Light armors. And that it could do with Knowledge(all skills taken individually), for the eduaction thing, and Use Magic Device.

Overall, I see this class as a 'midfielder', neither a fighter nor a rogue but capable in both fields. Just hang back and look at the situation, then perform as needed.

 

[Khaalis]

I too am not sure of the balance. The class overall, comes out weak in my opinion. Some comparisons…

 	CITIZEN		FIGHTER		SWASH*		RANGER		PALADIN		BARB
HD	d8		d10		d10		d8		d10		d12
BAB	Good		Good		Good		Good		Good		Good
Saves	2 Good		1 Good		1 Good		2 Good		1 Good		1 Good
SP's	4+		2+		4+		6+		2+		4+
Skills	21		7		12		19		10		9
Weap.s	All S, M	All S, M	All S, M	All S, M	All S, M	All S, M
Armor	L, M+S		All+Tower	L		L+S		All+S		L, M+S
Ability	6 Feats		11 Feats	16		17+Spells	18+Spells	24

* [u]Complete Warrior[/u]: SWASH = Swashbuckler

From this we can see that of all the martial classes, the Ranger is the only other with 2 Good saves, which carry some weight in class balance. It is also the only other truly Skill oriented martial class with 19 class skills, balancing it with the Citizen. However, the Ranger has a FAR better Skill to Skill Point ratio and has 11 Class Abilities more, plus spellcasting.

I think to strengthen the class to more match the Core classes, I would change the following (with a few agreements on other’s comments).

* Change to Light armor and shields, as medium armor doesn’t fit the description or purpose of the class very well.
* Since class abilities for the class are VERY low, even though they are true feats not set abilities, this is very limiting and where the true weakness comes in. Especially since the Fighter class is one of the weakest classes balance wise to begin with. However, since the class is more emphasized on its Skills than on Class Abilities, I would increase Skill Points to 8+ to improve the class skill to skill point ratio. This will make them more skill intensive and compensate for the lack of class abilities.
* I would re-stagger the 6 feats to equal them out more: 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 OR better yet make the acquisition a little more uniform and make it 7 feats at: 1, 4, 7, 11, 14, 17, and 20.

I think this would be a closer balance to the core classes. It doesn’t overshadow the Fighter (only 7 versus 11 feats), and its skill selection defines where it resides purpose-wise, which doesn’t step on the toes of any other class.

JMHO.

 

[Al]

However, since the class is more emphasized on its Skills than on Class Abilities, I would increase Skill Points to 8+ to improve the class skill to skill point ratio. This will make them more skill intensive and compensate for the lack of class abilities.

Whilst I'm broadly in agreement that the skill point: class skill ratio is too low, I'd be wary of equalising SPs with the rogue, as the fact that the rogue has the most skill points is generally regarded as canon (wrt core classes anyway). Six is a good compromise, bringing it in line with the bard and ranger.

Tools of The Trade: When using equipment that grants a bonus to a skill check citizens can count double the bonus. For example: An citizen who is using a magnifying glass to appraise a gem gets a +4 circumstance bonus on his appraise check instead of +2.

Nice. This is a very handy ability. Ensure that make explicit that this doesn't apply to magical items!

In The Know: A citizen hears lots of gossip, rumors and stories which helps them identify things from appearances only. They instinctively know the name of any item, creature, ship, castle, or other foreign thing. The citizen does not have any additional information about the subject, short of the appropriate knowledge-check. This ability is not infallible and the citizen can still be tricked or otherwise mislead.

Interesting flavour, but of minimal mechanical use.
Fighter: "What's the big red thing with horns"
Citizen: "A balor!"
Fighter: "How tough is it? What does it do? Can it cast spells?"
Citizen: "Dunno".
...

Friends in High Places: Whenever a citizen uses the Profession skill to make a weekly wage, the citizen makes his skill check gold pieces per week, instead of the normal half.

Nearly worthless. This is certainly useful for NPCs, but given that this is a core (i.e. PC) class, the number of Profession checks that you tend to see in an average campaign is not huge. And no PC past about 3rd level is going to be particularly enthused at the prospect of getting 20gp/week instead of 10gp.

However, I do like the titles of "In The Know" and "Friends in High Places". My changes would be to give the Citizen Lore (as per the bard ability) and a scaling bonus (+1/5 levels?) to Gather Info, Diplomacy (by name-dropping) and Bluff (likewise).

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'm going to keep the medium armor. Some of you feel it's out of place but I'll keep it just the same. The reason for this is two fold. First, I think it's only fitting that a citizen, with his broad education, is trained in the use of armor. I can easily imagine a him wearing breastplate, for example. Take a look at Cleopatra (with Richard Burton) to see what I mean. Second, the class really needs it. The citizen has no other means of extra protection. The citizen is not a swashbuckler and has no other abilities to back up an unarmored defense. So it stays. Basically this is not more strange than druids and barbarians having access to medium armor. -Why not heavy armor then, you might ask. You have to draw the line somewhere, is my only response.

On the point of too few bonus feats and skill points, I see that I need to make a change. I do think that they already have enough, though. The thing is when you design a new core class you have to be careful not to make it too powerful. The old boys on the block should not be left behind. For a recent exemple; take a look at the totem barbarians in UA. Each and every alternative barbarian (be it eagle, dragon, snake, or whatnot) is weaker than the jaguar (core) barbarian. At least in my opinion. I think this is done on purpose by the designers. However, you all seem to agree that the citizen could do with an upgrade so it seems I have some room to maneouver. I might add the following (if it goes down well with you guys):

Private Tutoring:

At 1st level, a citizen gets a bonus feat chosen from the following list to represent the excellent education a citizen has been given: Deceitful, Diligent, Investigator, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, or Skill Focus applied to any one Knowledge.

I'll keep the skill points to 4. I've already given one explanation for this (i.e. rangers having to buy the functions "awareness" and "stealth" twice). Moreover; I like the class to be versatile but I don't want the actual characters too versatile, if you see what I mean? I can see how you might create a doctor, a lawyer, a prince, a black marketeer, a slave trader, with this class. That's all well and good, but I don't want the doctor to afford being a black marketeer as well. Or a black marketeer affording to be a doctor. That's why I'd rather keep the number of skill points limited.

Everything is not set in stone. This is just how I feel about these things right now. I'm going to create a couple of characters with this class. I'll post them when ready, so that we can see how the rules work out.

I'm rather surprised at your interest and commitment to this thread. I thank you for your input. It's most rewarding.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Interesting flavour, but of minimal mechanical use.
Fighter: "What's the big red thing with horns"
Citizen: "A balor!"
Fighter: "How tough is it? What does it do? Can it cast spells?"
Citizen: "Dunno".
...

I'll keep this ability for some other project. The good thing about this ability is that it is a way for the DM to communicate names to the players without giving out too much plot information. It's good to be able to use all those marvelous words and names at the table, rather that having to refer to stuff as ...well stuff or thingies.

In fact, maybe this is how bardic knowledge should work? Once you have the name, balor for instance, the bard or other character might google their knowledge skills for more info.

Fighter: "What's the big red thing with horns"
Bard: "A balor!"
Fighter: "How tough is it? What does it do? Can it cast spells?"
Bard: "Dunno".
Cleric: "Balor you say... I think I've read about those back at the church."

Looks like I hi-jacked this thread. Sorry.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Example characters

Amala, female Czn 1 (princess): CR 1; Medium Human (5 ft.3in. tall); HD 1d8+1; hp 9; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 12 (+1 dex, +1 dodge); Atks +3 (1d4, masterwork dagger) or +3 ranged (1d4, masterwork dagger); AL N; SV Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +3; Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 14.
Skills: Bluff +6, Disguise +8, Forgery +4, Intimidate +4 (cc), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +6, Perform (sing) +6, Ride +6, Sense Motive +3. Feats: Deceitful, Dodge, Iron Will, Weapon Finesse. Traits: Tenderfoot

Ohrncroft, male Czn 4 (slave trader): CR 4; Medium Human (6 ft.1in. tall); HD 4d8+4; hp 25; Init +1; Spd 20 ft.; AC 16 (+1 dex, breastplate); Atks +9 (1d3§+3, masterwork whip); AL LE; SV Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +3; Str 16, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14.
Skills: Appraise +7, Diplomacy +5, Bluff +9, Intimidate +4 (cc), Profession (trader) +6, Sense Motive +6. Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), Great Fortitude, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (whip), Persuasive. Traits: Tenderfoot

Carwen Silversteel, male Czn 12 (knight): CR 12; Medium Human (6 ft. tall); HD 12d8+24; hp 81; Init -1; Spd 20 ft.; AC 19 (-1 dex, +8 full plate, large steel shield +2); Atks +18/+13/+8 (1d8+4, masterwork longsword); AL LG; SV Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +8; Str 18, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 13.
Skills: Diplomacy +20, Handle Animal +8 (cc), Heal +15, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +15, Perform (oratory) +16, Ride +16, Sense Motive +2, Survival +1 (cc). Feats: Cleave, Diehard, Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Negotiator, Power Attack, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance), Weapon Focus (longsword).

 

[Sigurd]

Why not modify the skills per level.

I think I see what you're trying to do with this, sort of a self absorbed noble. Since so much of the characters training is entirely in his own hands how bout modifying the Skills per level.

Skill points per level = 3 x intbonus or 3 whichever is greater. That would make a genius citizen able to get a whopping 12 points per level but a rich useless brat waste his time.

Some guidance\limitations would be needed on skill choice. You'd have to protect against the high points being abused. Perhaps the class might have a negative BAB adjustment, actually becoming more helpless, after all 'thats what the army is for!"

S