D&D 5E The Cleric

[pemerton]

a Cleric of a philosophy about avoiding attachments would get no armor, but would be heck-on-wheels at escaping grabs, and could probably cast Freedom of Movement as a 30-second Ritual.

This is starting to seem a bit more like a cleric of puns!

 

[GX.Sigma]

This was less of an issue in 3e because you got two domains at first level, so the cleric of Shar could be "Magic" and "Shadow," and the cleric of Mystra could be "Magic" and "Knowledge" or whatever.

I kind of like the implications of the current system. Everyone in the Grand Church of Bahamut reads the same canonical prayer book and trains in the same mystical techniques, so they all have the same domain spells and weapon proficiencies and so on. There's still a decent amount of differentiation you can do between individuals in the church, since spell selection is still wide open (not to mention equipment selection, feats, skills, race, multiclassing, etc).

I like it for specific deities (I actually made a post about it before it showed up in the packet), but it seems wrong for the core game. Either the core says "a cleric gains power from a deity" and all these other products say "actually some of them don't," or the core says "clerics gain power from devotion to a deity, pantheon, or other beliefs."

(1) Yes, calling them deities means that clerics get their power from deities. As a tautology, that's true enough.

See Remathilis' post about Mystara, Dark Sun, Eberron, Dragonlance, Planescape, etc. Also see the Cleric section of the playtest packet (just under the Cleric header).

(2) Calling the source deities says nothing about who or what the cleric worships. A cleric can worship as many deities or other things as it likes, as of course may a non-cleric. It says nothing about priests, either, since priest is a background. It only says that the cleric (the individual with a specific relationship to a source of divine power) receives her power from a single source at any one time (since introducing mechanisms for changing deity are trivial).

In 2e (according to Planescape, at least), Clerics gain their spells from a whole pantheon, while specialty priests gain their spells only from a single power. This is a very important distinction in the Outer Planes (both story-wise and mechanically).

(3) Nor does it say that all of a given deity's clerics are the same. It says only that the pool of possible manifestations of divine power are the same (and are largely shared by all clerics regardless of deity anyway).

I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Either the core says "a cleric gains power from a deity" and all these other products say "actually some of them don't," or the core says "clerics gain power from devotion to a deity, pantheon, or other beliefs."

I think we're not disagreeing on major matters. The core can (and probably will) say one of these things or the other.

See Remathilis' post about Mystara, Dark Sun, Eberron, Dragonlance, Planescape, etc. Also see the Cleric section of the playtest packet (just under the Cleric header).

Remathilis' list was very helpful for me (thanks!) -- I don't know many of these settings, and am interested primarily in the default setting, whatever that proves to be. New rules for the source of cleric power can of course change in a new setting; I hadn't meant to suggest otherwise.

In 2e (according to Planescape, at least), Clerics gain their spells from a whole pantheon, while specialty priests gain their spells only from a single power. This is a very important distinction in the Outer Planes (both story-wise and mechanically).

I'm fine with a whole pantheon as "the source". This does not seem qualitatively different, whereas gaining power from an impersonal sense of Fair Play does (to me, at least).

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Merely that to say I don't think all clerics are the same. It seems to me to ignore the many opportunities for individuation (through spell choice, abilities, backgrounds, feats, race, etc, let alone character and role playing) -- the pool of "theme" spells you have to draw on is only a small part of that.

 

[Jack99]

This is starting to seem a bit more like a cleric of puns!

Is that someone who worships Pun-Pun?

 

[Alzrius]

That's not true in multiple D&D worlds...

It's worth noting, before anything else, that all of these answers about whether or not you need a deity to grant spells, or can gain them from something else, are fluid, and have changed over time during the course of D&D. Sometimes that's true even for various worlds.

The 2E Complete Priest's Handbook, for example, flat-out stated that - as an option - clerics could gain their spells from a faith (god), a force, or a philosophy. This wasn't meant to be set in stone, but was an example of how DMs could approach the question.

1.) Mystara has no Gods; they have immortals who (while powerful beings) don't grant spells directly to priests. Clerics draw power from belief (usually in a universal force like Law or Good) and may be a member of a church which worships many deities. A cleric could belong to a church but not worship an immortal (or immortals) or even do neither and still receives his powers.

It's worth noting that, after Basic D&D was no longer supported, Mystara was brought over into 2E, and its "immortals" became deities - many of these (the good and neutral ones) are expressly listed in the back of Warriors of Heaven.

2.) Athas has no Gods; priests worship aspects of nature (rain, sun, wind, etc) which grants them power.

Druids can also worship the "spirit of the land" (e.g. nature) to gain spells. Templars, prior to 4E, were divine spellcasters who drew power from the sorcerer-kings (the sorcerer-kings themselves were granting this power via a conduit to the elemental planes, gained from a "living vortex" in early products, and retconned to be the Dark Lens (a major artifact) later on).

3.) Eberron, while having deities, also allows clerics of "the Dragon Above", a divine force that is non-sentient (or at least non-communicative) and grants clerics power.

The Silver Flame could be said to be an example of a "force" as mentioned above.

4.) Krynn, at one point, had no deities and clerics (well, mystics) drew on internal power of belief to power divine magic.

It's worth noting that as originally presented, mysticism (in the SAGA RPG) could only affect living things, and was very different from clerical magic of previous ages. This was retconned when the 3.5 Dragonlance books came out from Sovereign Press.

5.) Its been said (or merely hinted at) that Ravenloft's Dark Powers have granted spellcasting to clerics in the Mists.

This is, as you noted, a hint at best. Clerics who enter Ravenloft are said to feel a personal loss regarding their deity, but they still gain spells. It is shown (in the adventure The Awakening) that deities can affect Ravenloft from their home planes (e.g. without entering it), but that the Dark Powers can distort their efforts. Domains of Dread and the Player's Guide to Greyhawk also note that demigods trapped in Ravenloft cannot grant spells above 2nd-level to clerics outside of it (but Die Vecna Die! - which i thought was an excellent adventure - noted that some clerics can create a magic item called a knucklebone of channeling that allows them to receive their full allotment of spells).

6.) Planescape described the concept of "near powers"; non-deities (such as demon lords, Archdevils, animal lords, elemental princes, or powerful celestial beings) who could grant their priests spells. Two Factions (the Athar and the Believers of the Source) could also draw power from their beliefs (The Great Unknown for the Athar, the Source for the Believers) and gain priest spells there too. Additionally, Many Dustmen didn't worship deities of death, but Death (with a capital D) as a force of the universe.

The issue of demon lords, arch-devils and other things as being "near gods" didn't originate with Planescape, as the question of whether or not they were gods, or had god-like powers, had been going on for a while. For example, Monstrous Mythology had listed several demon lords as gods (e.g. Juiblex, Baphomet, Yeenoghu, etc.), and the article "The Lords of the Nine," by Colin McComb in Dragon #223, talked about the Lords' statistics as being "avatars." It also noted that these near-powers could only grant up to 4th-level spells, and that they were subject to restrictions (the same restrictions as deities in 1E, below).

It's also worth noting that both First and Second Editions had systems that limited the ability of clerics to receive divine spells from their deities. In 1E, you could gain first- and second-level spells from faith alone, but third- and fourth-level spells required that an agent of your god be imbued with those spells, and had to relay them to you in person. For spells of fifth-level and above, you had to literally receive them directly from your god - as in, be standing right in front of him to get them.

While Second Edition never explicitly said this, Planescape did reference it (at least in terms of the "near-powers," in - if I recall correctly - On Hallowed Ground). Moreover, while 1E had gods being demigods/lesser gods/greater gods, 2E not only introduced a new rank, the intermediate god (e.g. demigod/lesser god/intermediate god/greater god), but it also limited the maximum level of spells your god could grant by their rank. So demigods could only grant up to 5th-level spells, and lesser gods could only grant up to 6th-level spells; only intermediate and greater gods could grant any level of clerical spells (remember, in 1E and 2E, clerical spells went only up to 7th-level).

If you utilized both of these rules together (e.g. stronger spells require a more personal action to acquire, and weaker gods couldn't grant all spells), you had what I thought was a very intricate and interesting system of how gods and clerics interacted to send and receive divine spellcasting abilities. That's without even getting into the nature of how divine magic worked on the planes!

By the way, as I recall, the idea of having clerics of an entire pantheon was an option in The Planewalker's Handbook (along with an option for being a cleric of two gods).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

What if they kept the current system but called them "faiths" instead of "deities"?

That would open it up to all the cleric-of-an-idea folks, since even if you're a Cleric of the Platonic Concept of Serenity or whatever, you have to have faith in that idea to power your spells.

It would also open up the possibility of different churches or orders dedicated to the same god working in different ways. They're worshipping the same god but with different faiths (much like real-world Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims).

 

[Remathilis]

It's worth noting, before anything else, that all of these answers about whether or not you need a deity to grant spells, or can gain them from something else, are fluid, and have changed over time during the course of D&D. Sometimes that's true even for various worlds.

Yes, as editions move on, rules on how deities and priests interacted changed.

The 2E Complete Priest's Handbook, for example, flat-out stated that - as an option - clerics could gain their spells from a faith (god), a force, or a philosophy. This wasn't meant to be set in stone, but was an example of how DMs could approach the question.

Correct. Examples included Good (philosophy), Evil (philosophy), Divinity of Mankind (Philosophy), Elemental Forces (Force) and Life-Death-Rebirth (Force). Death (Force) got done somewhere (Dragon?) as well. Druid was also given as a "Force".

It worked well for generic D&D (though the less said about the actual priest classes, the better).

It's worth noting that, after Basic D&D was no longer supported, Mystara was brought over into 2E, and its "immortals" became deities - many of these (the good and neutral ones) are expressly listed in the back of Warriors of Heaven.

That's iffy. The 2e Mystara box-set (Kingdoms of Karameikos) goes out of its way to spell out that deities =/= immortals. Savage Coast does likewise. Mystara is barely mentioned in Planescape (a few fleeting references) until Warriors of Heaven, which does a straight immortal to deity conversion for the first time. (and ignores the cannon immigrants like Thor and Orcus).

I tend to side with the 15+ years of Mystara cannon from the basic line over one chart in the end of 2e on this one.

Druids can also worship the "spirit of the land" (e.g. nature) to gain spells. Templars, prior to 4E, were divine spellcasters who drew power from the sorcerer-kings (the sorcerer-kings themselves were granting this power via a conduit to the elemental planes, gained from a "living vortex" in early products, and retconned to be the Dark Lens (a major artifact) later on).

True. Templars are the closest to "real" clerics in DS, since they do communicate with a sentient force (the Dragon Kings) for power. Elemental Clerics and Druids do not, but draw off the land.

The Silver Flame could be said to be an example of a "force" as mentioned above.

Very true. It should also be noted Eberron Deities are remote, which allows clerics to widely differ from their deities ethos and still maintain spellcasting ability. (There are numerous examples of Evil clerics of the Silver Flame retaining their magic).

It's worth noting that as originally presented, mysticism (in the SAGA RPG) could only affect living things, and was very different from clerical magic of previous ages. This was retconned when the 3.5 Dragonlance books came out from Sovereign Press.

Aside of knowing its origin in SAGA, I wasn't too keen on how 5th Age handled Mysticism. I must admit I much prefer the Sorcerer/Mystic as caster system in the 3.5 book. Still, it represents a priest gaining power without deities.

This is, as you noted, a hint at best. Clerics who enter Ravenloft are said to feel a personal loss regarding their deity, but they still gain spells. It is shown (in the adventure The Awakening) that deities can affect Ravenloft from their home planes (e.g. without entering it), but that the Dark Powers can distort their efforts. Domains of Dread and the Player's Guide to Greyhawk also note that demigods trapped in Ravenloft cannot grant spells above 2nd-level to clerics outside of it (but Die Vecna Die! - which i thought was an excellent adventure - noted that some clerics can create a magic item called a knucklebone of channeling that allows them to receive their full allotment of spells).

I was more referring to the domain's homemade religions; The Morninglord, Ezra or Zhakata (the latter straight up is told to be the Dark Powers granting them spells). The Morninglord is belief in a heroic figure (Jandar Sunstar) mixed with Lathandarian beliefs and only found in Barovia, Ezra is spread out among the Core but Domains of Dread straight up says Anchorites (her priests) lose their power outside the Mists. Like much of Ravenloft, the whole belief/divine patron thing seems blurred.

The issue of demon lords, arch-devils and other things as being "near gods" didn't originate with Planescape, as the question of whether or not they were gods, or had god-like powers, had been going on for a while. For example, Monstrous Mythology had listed several demon lords as gods (e.g. Juiblex, Baphomet, Yeenoghu, etc.), and the article "The Lords of the Nine," by Colin McComb in Dragon #223, talked about the Lords' statistics as being "avatars." It also noted that these near-powers could only grant up to 4th-level spells, and that they were subject to restrictions (the same restrictions as deities in 1E, below).

True, but Monster Mythology just said some of them were now 100% Gods, whereas Planescape straddled the line between spell-granting divine power and high-level killable monster (ironically). Some demon lords retained their divinity (Lolth) while others didn't (Demogorgon).

It's also worth noting that both First and Second Editions had systems that limited the ability of clerics to receive divine spells from their deities. In 1E, you could gain first- and second-level spells from faith alone, but third- and fourth-level spells required that an agent of your god be imbued with those spells, and had to relay them to you in person. For spells of fifth-level and above, you had to literally receive them directly from your god - as in, be standing right in front of him to get them.

While Second Edition never explicitly said this, Planescape did reference it (at least in terms of the "near-powers," in - if I recall correctly - On Hallowed Ground). Moreover, while 1E had gods being demigods/lesser gods/greater gods, 2E not only introduced a new rank, the intermediate god (e.g. demigod/lesser god/intermediate god/greater god), but it also limited the maximum level of spells your god could grant by their rank. So demigods could only grant up to 5th-level spells, and lesser gods could only grant up to 6th-level spells; only intermediate and greater gods could grant any level of clerical spells (remember, in 1E and 2E, clerical spells went only up to 7th-level).

It was mentioned in the PHB as a DM option rule (If the DM wants...) Though that rule isn't applied universally. Forgotten Realm's deities seem to have no problem granting any spell to any priest, while I'm SURE Greyhawk (in Player's Guide) spells that one out with great care.

If you utilized both of these rules together (e.g. stronger spells require a more personal action to acquire, and weaker gods couldn't grant all spells), you had what I thought was a very intricate and interesting system of how gods and clerics interacted to send and receive divine spellcasting abilities. That's without even getting into the nature of how divine magic worked on the planes!

Agreed, but it doesn't solve the issue at stake here, which was clerics "needing" a deity to gain power. Though it does seem weird to think a cleric of a demigod is more screwed than a cleric worshipping the Divinity of Mankind when it comes to high-level spells.

By the way, as I recall, the idea of having clerics of an entire pantheon was an option in The Planewalker's Handbook (along with an option for being a cleric of two gods).

On Hallowed Ground. It was their way of getting around the stupid spell-loss by plane idea.

Still, the moral of this story is that Clerics and Gods haven't gone together like Peas and Carrots in D&D. Some D&D worlds have required less than a divine source to gain powers, and I'd hate to lose that option by binding the cleric to a deity. (I also dislike All-Paladins-as-deity-worshippers as well, since I like the idea of secular paladins honoring the paladin's code for power).

 

[timASW]

I dont particularly like clerics without gods myself. But I also dont like a really hard ccificoded pantheon in the PHB. That seems setting specific to me.

So my ideal solution would be to keep domains but strongly suggest that DM's attach those domains to specific deities in their campaign worlds and published settings should have a strongly fleshed out pantheon. Then you make all divine casters actually pick a god in order to be able to cast spells.

That would make people on my side of the fence happy and people on the deity less clerics side could just ignore the part about having to choose a god and could go with domains only as a simple solution.

Plus this way gives individual DM's the ability to use it like one of those "dials" they've been talking about.

 

[Remathilis]

I dont particularly like clerics without gods myself. But I also dont like a really hard ccificoded pantheon in the PHB. That seems setting specific to me.

So my ideal solution would be to keep domains but strongly suggest that DM's attach those domains to specific deities in their campaign worlds and published settings should have a strongly fleshed out pantheon. Then you make all divine casters actually pick a god in order to be able to cast spells.

That would make people on my side of the fence happy and people on the deity less clerics side could just ignore the part about having to choose a god and could go with domains only as a simple solution.

Plus this way gives individual DM's the ability to use it like one of those "dials" they've been talking about.

Effectively, this is what 3e did. A deity grants two domains, but those not wanting to use deities can just pick two domains and go at it.

 

[triqui]

Why not call "deity" "sphere" or "domain" for the cleric. I am playing a cleric in a 3e game right now and he does not have a deity, he is a champion of a cause. I want this to be part of the core game assumption in 5e. I know most clerics in D&D setting are worshipers of a deity but I would like there to be a situation where, like in 3e, you can select a philosophy or cause. Point is, the door should be left open, if you have a deity it closes it.

Which cause? That cause might be embodied by one of the icons, gods, deities, paragons, or whatever name you want to call them.

If your cause is to defend every single innocent, then you follow The Protector. Just like my Moradin Cleric Dwarf, that Pelor cleric, and the Bahamut templar over there.