The Confederate Flag

[Dannyalcatraz]

Do not modern descendants of displaced Native Americans and the descendants of enslaved Africans also benefit from the same institutions?

Bullgrit

Sure we do, but not in quite the same way. Not to the same degree.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Just one example: college admissions boards take into account all kinds of factors when choosing who to offer a slot to. One thing they're doing is offering a certain number of slots to minority students. They do this because of "diversity"/affirmative action concerns. This makes some white people think they're getting shafted. Some have even sued over it. My law school, University of Texas, has been targeted multiple times for this, and is currently involved in one right now that may reach the SCOTUS.

But consider: one of the factors in admissions is "legacy". "Legacy" means you get a higher priority to admission in a given college because an ancestor went to that institution. You know who most of those ancestors for legacies are? Whites...usually guys. Racial minorities (and in some cases, women) were forbidden from attending many of those institutions, either by force of law (in the South) or by school charter (everywhere else). As a result, blacks, hispanics, etc., will be statistically far less likely to be granted a "legacy" consideration almost everywhere except at colleges founded by & for minorities.

IOW, as long as "legacy" is a factor, whites will have a statistical advantage on college admissions almost nationwide.

Take it down a couple levels to public school funding. In many areas, schools are primarily funded by property taxes gathered in the area the school serves. This is great if you live in a wealthy neighborhood, and absolutely sucks if you love in a poor one. To rectify this, some states do reallocate some funds from wealthier districts to poorer ones. Guess what: the people in the richer districts often cry foul. Demographics tell us that the poorer districts overwhelmingly tend to be populated by minorities, while wealthier ones tend to be whiter.

While there is no direct correlation between school funding and post-graduate student performance, some deleterious effects of underfunding are obvious: student aid services are less available, up-to-date learning tools are less available. Hell- things like temperature regulation, leak and mold control that well-funded schools take for granted may be completely absent in poorer districts.

 

[Morrus]

But there are people alive today who were involved in that. No one alive today was a part of the slavery of the 1700's and 1800's. Not a single one.

Being alive today isn't germaine to my argument at all. But never mind; I've failed to communicate it. I've exhausted my rhetorical and debating skills.

 

[Raunalyn]

Being alive today isn't germaine to my argument at all. But never mind; I've failed to communicate it. I've exhausted my rhetorical and debating skills.

No...perhaps I wasn't clear in getting my point across...again, my apologies. I understand your point

Let me see if I can make my point a little clearer. Will reparations help our nation/society move past this? In my opinion...no. We won't as long as we continue to live in the past.

 

[gamerprinter]

Somebody mentioned up thread, instead of reparations, perhaps free college education to all black Americans and native Americans, which I can stand behind, but the problem there, is that the government would need to pay those colleges, as the colleges themselves shouldn't have to pay for that themselves. What I'm getting at, is right now, state colleges have to honor the GI Bill, since I'm a veteran, that's how I got my college expenses fulfilled, but as I've learned, the state of Illinois owes millions of dollars in unpaid GI Bill educations. State colleges have to honor the GI Bill, but the government is supposed to pay them for that - except they aren't, and colleges are now in debt. So while I agree that providing an education is a good work-around to reparations, I'm afraid the US government won't honor that, like they're not honoring the GI Bill.

 

[MechaPilot]

Somebody mentioned up thread, instead of reparations, perhaps free college education to all black Americans and native Americans, which I can stand behind, but the problem there, is that the government would need to pay those colleges, as the colleges themselves shouldn't have to pay for that themselves. What I'm getting at, is right now, state colleges have to honor the GI Bill, since I'm a veteran, that's how I got my college expenses fulfilled, but as I've learned, the state of Illinois owes millions of dollars in unpaid GI Bill educations. State colleges have to honor the GI Bill, but the government is supposed to pay them for that - except they aren't, and colleges are now in debt. So while I agree that providing an education is a good work-around to reparations, I'm afraid the US government won't honor that, like they're not honoring the GI Bill.

I mentioned interest-free education loans.

 

[Morrus]

Let me see if I can make my point a little clearer. Will reparations help our nation/society move past this? In my opinion...no. We won't as long as we continue to live in the past.

Like I said, I understand your point. I disagree with it. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: free/reduced college tuition & student loans for minorities

GREAT!...but it's not as economically efficient as reparations, for a variety of reasons.

Some people don't need college to do what they want to do. Some people aren't cut out for college. Some people wouldn't be able to afford the living & travel expenses incurred by going to college.

Cash, though, is always useful. At least with pure cash reparations, people have flexibility. Money could be used to buy a vehicle to get to a better job, farther away. It could be used as seed money for a business. It could be used to wipe out consumer debt.

It could even be used on ale & whores.

(Side note: I haven't looked into it, but in wonder what the effects and affordability of tax credits or similar offsets would be...)

Plus, as was pointed out, because our current gov't is in a "cut taxes & spend" mindset, coupled with an almost pathological dislike of social program spending, it is likely that a "Minority Reparations College Bill" would be no more well managed or funded than the GI Bill or TriCare (healthcare for veterans) is right now.

My position: we'd be better off as minorities (in particular) and as a society (in general) if we took seriously the business of dismantling the institutionalized forms of white (and male) privilege...and with it, stopped rigging our version of capitalism to favor those who are already rich in order to increase economic mobility.

We can't reset the game to give everyone the same odds of success- to do so would be patently unfair and economically ruinous. But we CAN do a better job of making sure the game is fairer going forward.

 

[Janx]

Re: free/reduced college tuition & student loans for minorities

GREAT!...but it's not as economically efficient as reparations, for a variety of reasons.

Some people don't need college to do what they want to do. Some people aren't cut out for college. Some people wouldn't be able to afford the living & travel expenses incurred by going to college.

Cash, though, is always useful. At least with pure cash reparations, people have flexibility. Money could be used to buy a vehicle to get to a better job, farther away. It could be used as seed money for a business. It could be used to wipe out consumer debt.

It could even be used on ale & whores.

(Side note: I haven't looked into it, but in wonder what the effects and affordability of tax credits or similar offsets would be...)

Plus, as was pointed out, because our current gov't is in a "cut taxes & spend" mindset, coupled with an almost pathological dislike of social program spending, it is likely that a "Minority Reparations College Bill" would be no more well managed or funded than the GI Bill or TriCare (healthcare for veterans) is right now.

My position: we'd be better off as minorities (in particular) and as a society (in general) if we took seriously the business of dismantling the institutionalized forms of white (and male) privilege...and with it, stopped rigging our version of capitalism to favor those who are already rich in order to increase economic mobility.

We can't reset the game to give everyone the same odds of success- to do so would be patently unfair and economically ruinous. But we CAN do a better job of making sure the game is fairer going forward.

On ale & whores: if after the money was spent on that, if a dude was whining about the man holding him down, would it be legal to slap him silly? I imagine there'd be an anti-reparation contingent who thinks "they'd just waste it anyway". So I'm wondering if that clause was in there, would that help? Though I do like your thinking that technically, such wastage would be a boon to somebody (whores for instance). Though I do think that the usual sharks would move in to "help manage" all that influx of cash in ways that enrich the helpers more than the helped.

Would it maybe be more cost effective if we just figured out how to rearrange the rigged or racist parts of society so black folks get a decent chance (as you say is your position)? Changing how things work doesn't cost money per se (not like cutting checks for $2.5 million per black citizen).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

On ale & whores: if after the money was spent on that, if a dude was whining about the man holding him down, would it be legal to slap him silly? I imagine there'd be an anti-reparation contingent who thinks "they'd just waste it anyway". So I'm wondering if that clause was in there, would that help? Though I do like your thinking that technically, such wastage would be a boon to somebody (whores for instance). Though I do think that the usual sharks would move in to "help manage" all that influx of cash in ways that enrich the helpers more than the helped.

The slapping might not be legal, but it may certainly be ethical.
There was a line from a movie, in which a (self-hating) black sergeant said to a not-too bright black private, "The black race can't afford you anymore." right before Bad Stuff Happened. I always hated the character, but I loved the point: some people ARE a drag on their own kind.

But yeah, I'd be on board with limiting what reparations money could be spent on.

Would it maybe be more cost effective if we just figured out how to rearrange the rigged or racist parts of society so black folks get a decent chance (as you say is your position)? Changing how things work doesn't cost money per se (not like cutting checks for $2.5 million per black citizen).

I honestly think it would be.

Yeah, there are costs involved: redrafting the laws would require man-hours of study, mountains of paperwork, and, of course, publicizing, reeducation, and the inevitable lawsuits in the transition.

In addition, some of those reforms would necessarily result in increased labor costs...and probably, a revision of executive compensation more in line with global norms.

But, OTOH, you'd have a better overall workforce: better paid, more capable, more optimistic, more motivated. That translates into a better functioning economic engine, which translates into a more stable & robust economy, and thus, more overall tax revenue. It might even turn the economy into one where Alfred Laffer would be right (but it's not likely).

 

[billd91]

I guess my real problem is that I agree that some kind of recompense is required, I just feel reparations are not the solution.

I agree. I'm not sure reparations are the best solution either. But even other moves at amelioration, like Affirmative Action, are under consistent political attack as "reverse discrimination". So I think there needs to be some upping of the ante to get a successful solution in the works.