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D&D 5E The cost of D&D 5E (it ain't so bad!)

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amerigoV

Guest
Would the people who oppose this cost rather buy a $25 dollar PHB without the Druid, Bard, and Gnome? Excluding those things would lower the cost...

Reduce the cost? They should Increase the price to exclude the gnomes, and doubly so to exclude Gnome Bards. That is addition by subtraction at its finest. I mean, wouldn't you pay more NOT to have Jar Jar Binks in Star Wars? I would say that I am kidding, but that is closer to the truth than not for me.


For me it does not matter for the Core. I am not jumping on the new D&D train, but I am going to get that Beginner set. A slimmed down D&D that runs Level 1 - 5 for $20 - that is a winner right there. Just enough to scratch that D&D itch (and lets face it, nothing does D&D like D&D) without breaking the bank for something I am not really going to use. Kudos to WoTC for that one.
 

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Zaran

Adventurer
If it's a full game 150 dollars is worth it. If the books are fluffed up with huge pictures and font and we still "need" other books to make characters we could make in third edition then that's another thing altogether. It doesn't sound like that's going to be the case though. Also, having a MM that is 320 pages sounds great. Same for the DMG. Those are larger page counts than previous editions.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
If it's a full game 150 dollars is worth it. If the books are fluffed up with huge pictures and font and we still "need" other books to make characters we could make in third edition then that's another thing altogether. It doesn't sound like that's going to be the case though. Also, having a MM that is 320 pages sounds great. Same for the DMG. Those are larger page counts than previous editions.

320 x 3 is the same page count as in 3.5, and that to me means years of potential gaming material.

In retrospective, I think the 3.0 core books were lacking only two things: there weren't enough feats for good character variety, and some schools of magic didn't have enough spells to keep up with the specialization requirement. But DMG and MM were less than 320 pages, with some rearrangement the missing pages could have fixed my 2 problems (3.5 added more material but didn't fix these).

Certainly, font size could be chosen to cram more stuff. I would totally like it if they used small fonts like in 3e, and in addition I'd reduce the number or the size of some of the art to make room for more material.
 

sunshadow21

Explorer
I see relying on the Starter Box for those not 100% into the game a bit of a problem actually. Levels 1-5 are not going to cut it for long term campaigns, meaning that at the very least the PHB + a lot of very, very good adventures is going to be needed to take the place of the full set of core books for those not wanting to devote themselves entirely to the new edition as their primary go to game. This is not impossible, and WotC adventures are gaining a better reputation than what they once had, but it's still a stretch to automatically assume it's going to happen. Even if an individual gamer might get a bit more from just the Starter Box, I don't see WotC wanting people to get too much out of the Starter Box because they want people to buy product, so I don't really expect a particularly robust box; enough for a couple of basic, low-level adventures beyond the one provided, and that's probably about it. Still worth the cost for most who buy it, but not a long term product that replaces the core books or DDI.

The biggest problem I see is that it prices out those groups that may enjoy playing it occasionally, but not enough to justify that high of a cost for the core books and/or a constant DDI subscription, which, long term, are going to be what is needed to run a campaign unless WotC drastically changes their business model. There will probably be temporary tools off of DDI to help a campaign along until the full set of books is out, but I wouldn't expect much more than that. Even a limited permanent SRD off of DDI would go a long way, but I'm not convinced that WotC willl do it because at least right now I don't see them doing anything that even hints of detracting from a DDI subscription. That means that most groups that might be willing to play it as a secondary campaign are basically forced to invest in it at a cost that they probably won't find to be worth it for a non-primary game; this is the market that WotC failed to catch with 4E, and unless their adventures are suddenly through the roof in quality, I don't see them catching it again this time, and that's going to hurt them as much this time as it did with 4E.

That being said, the problem isn't the price itself, but rather what people will get for the price. For those who make it their primary game, it's a fair price, and it's still possible, though unlikely, that the core 3 books will be high enough in both quality and content that even those who don't make it their primary game will find enough value to eventually plunk down that much money, though I would not expect that crowd to do so immediately or ever if the initial reviews are anything short of absolutely glowing. There will also certainly be a large spike at first as collectors and the merely curious buy at least the PHB; whether those people keep buying the books down the road is going to be the big test for WotC. It's not a lot of money relatively speaking, but it's still a pretty hefty chunk of change in a world with a lot of other options for people to spend it on, so perceived value to the individual buyer is going to be a large factor that WotC cannot afford to overlook. Catering only to those that are willing to fully invest in the system as their primary game didn't work for them with 4E, and it won't work for this edition either. With the core books priced that high, they are going to have to work hard to hook in the sometimes crowd, whether that be really, really high quality books, PDFs, adventures that allow people to bypass the MM and DMG for a good long time, a change in the structure of the DDI subscription, or something else.
 
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Hussar

Legend
The price argument for RPG's has always baffled me to be honest.

I'm having trouble naming a single hobby that I can enjoy for several hundred hours with 3-5 other people for a 150 bucks. Gaming is ridiculously cheap.
 

delericho

Legend
I see relying on the Starter Box for those not 100% into the game a bit of a problem actually. Levels 1-5 are not going to cut it for long term campaigns, meaning that at the very least the PHB + a lot of very, very good adventures is going to be needed to take the place of the full set of core books for those not wanting to devote themselves entirely to the new edition as their primary go to game.

With respect, WotC really shouldn't concern themselves over-much with this particular group. A halfway-decent Starter Set covering levels 1-5 should be more than adequate for a couple of months of gaming. Surely that's enough to decide whether they are willing to take the plunge or not? And if the decision is that they'll not take the plunge, then frankly I see no problem with them not receiving further support. WotC aren't a charity; they produce the game (and support materials) for one reason only - they want to make money.

(It should go without saying that I have much more sympathy with people who, for whatever reason, find they cannot pay the $150 WotC are requesting for the full game. Though even here there's an argument that perhaps they can content themselves with some other game - there are plenty of RPGs out there that are entirely free, including retroclones of most versions of D&D.)
 

sunshadow21

Explorer
With respect, WotC really shouldn't concern themselves over-much with this particular group. A halfway-decent Starter Set covering levels 1-5 should be more than adequate for a couple of months of gaming. Surely that's enough to decide whether they are willing to take the plunge or not? And if the decision is that they'll not take the plunge, then frankly I see no problem with them not receiving further support. WotC aren't a charity; they produce the game (and support materials) for one reason only - they want to make money.

(It should go without saying that I have much more sympathy with people who, for whatever reason, find they cannot pay the $150 WotC are requesting for the full game. Though even here there's an argument that perhaps they can content themselves with some other game - there are plenty of RPGs out there that are entirely free, including retroclones of most versions of D&D.)

The problem with that approach is that you end up with a lot of folks who buy the Starter Box, and never ever even think about buying another product again, and from WotC's prospective, that's no good either. This group cannot be the focus, to be sure, but to exclude them the way they did in 4E again is going to lead to many of the same problems that 4E had. Hiding everything behind a paywall (either comparatively more expensive core books or something like DDI) and trying to convince people to pay to get beyond it without showing them anything beyond levels 1-5 is not going to get them very far in terms of long term sales and sustaining of the product line. That is where Paizo actually does quite well, and why they have been the success they have been. Even if people don't buy the AP's, they can still buy the core books, one of the other soft back series, or the individual adventures in whatever combination they see fit, and Paizo still gets money to make further product with. WotC must do something similar in order for this new edition to take off. Whether they produce the adventures or side material themselves or farm it out like they have with the initial adventures isn't as important as making sure they have a secondary line of products that strengthens the experience for those who are in their primary market while opening up the secondary market to ensure that they are getting at least some free word of mouth and income from the less than 100% focused.

In the end, I don't see the price as a problem, per se, but it does create challenges that WotC is going to have to work on to overcome if they want to catch and sustain a wider audience than they ultimately did with 4E. It's not even that hard to do; having different options for DDI subscriptions, a very basic SRD available to everyone for free, a license that falls somewhere between the OGL and what they had for 4E, offering PDFs for at least adventures, and that's just off the top of my head are all things that with the right planning take very little effort, strengthen the core market, and open the secondary market. If they can do these types of things, the concern over the high price tag of the core books will melt away just like it did for Paizo and PF; if they can't, than the high price tag will simply add to the pile of problems, making it that much harder for WotC to sell their brand to an unconvinced market.
 


Li Shenron

Legend
I see relying on the Starter Box for those not 100% into the game a bit of a problem actually. Levels 1-5 are not going to cut it for long term campaigns...

This is true, and I have seriously misunderstood Mearls when 1-2 years ago he said something like "we're not making a teaser / introductory product but a full-game product with the Basic rules and call it D&D".

I thought he meant that alongside the 3 core books, there was going to be a single book or box which covered the full 20 levels range, so that people owning that product would have been able to play at the same table with those owning the 3 core books. Only that such product was going to be limited in the amount of material: no subclasses, no feats, not every spell and perhaps not even all the classes and races. Something "vertically complete" but "horizontally limited", resulting in maybe a 100-pages or 150-pages book for 1/3 or 1/2 the price.

Maybe I didn't misunderstand the original message, but WotC changed their plans?

This Starter Set is just the usual box which is a teaser of the whole game. I don't think that's wrong at all, and at that price it's absolutely great for newcomers! But it's just not IMO what Mearls said a year ago that they were going to make.
 

Mercurius

Legend
[MENTION=95493]Tovec[/MENTION], there is just too much to reply to and honestly I'm not sure a back-and-forth would be fruitful at all. I do agree that 5E is expensive, even more expensive than any other RPG to play--at least as far as we know (rumor has it that there might be free, or cheap, online tools, possibly an SRD of some kind)--but as I said, they have the right to be. D&D is the Kleenex/Coke/Xerox/Rolex/Apple of RPGs. I'm not a big fan of capitalist ideology, but the simple fact of the matter is that companies charge as much as they possibly can, and evidently WotC thinks that $50 books will sell just as much as $40 books, or at least enough to make up for any lost sales.

All that said, I would love to see them come out with a "cheap version" of the game - sort of like an expanded starter set with more races and classes, levels 1-10, and chargen for $30 or so. But that's beside the point.

Anyhow, my concern is that--as with any internet context--we end up seeing endless polarized discussions that become rather predictable. There' are two extremes of people who have a beef with WotC and will thus criticize anything they do ("haters"), and those who avidly support anything they do ("fanbois"); I'm simply suggesting that we find some kind of middle ground. In this context it means seeing the reasoning behind their pricing, and pointing out that while it is expensive, it isn't that out of whack, although still retaining critical judgment (again, I would have thought $40-45 would have made more sense).
 

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