D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[doctorbadwolf]

"I want proof"
"Oh your proof is not proof. I need the game designer to say it in written interview not a video interview. Even through everything about what you said and the interviewer made sense in this 10 years old game. its one new official class that comes with the one setting that can't be printed without it. And the only other official class worked on was scrapped and the setting which required it banished."

I mean how many new official classes are there in this ten year old game. They aren't even putting it into the new PHB.

And this is from a company that vomited out new classes for money for the 2 prior edition.

It was in conversation when Eberron was released. And when Aberrant Mind Sorcerer was printed to "replace" psions.

My guy, you missed the point, but I’m genuinely really tired of this discussion so I’m gonna just leave it at that.

 

[CreamCloud0]

4e sounds like an edition that has a ton of really well made design that i'd love to play, but with like, maybe 25% of stuff that my brain absolutely would not want to be dealing with.

 

[Oofta]

I understand that, as far as you're concerned, this is a significant fix, but for me it really isn't. The fact that the buff isn't exclusive to the Wizard doesn't make it better. Self-casting is, of course, an issue. But the alternative is that the Fighter is now dependent on the Wizard's benevolent aid. Even if it is genuinely meant as kindness, it can be very grating. I don't know if you've ever been in an experience in your life where you had to depend on the kindness/charity of others in order to get by, but it sucks. Having even the ghost of that feeling in a TTRPG...is a very sour experience.

I never said anything about it being "a fix". I was just pointing out that it's a support spell, it doesn't make the caster better at social skills. It makes someone in the party better at something.

The Fighter is only 1 ASI ahead starting at 6th level, and only gets the second additional ASI at 14th--a level most characters never reach.

Feats aren't bad. But Wizards are SAD, while Fighters--especially ones who want to not suck at their prime function, but still get some skill stuff in--are very MAD.

Wizards are SAD? They don't need intelligence for their class, a decent dex to have even a smidgen of AC, a decent con to not die when they get hit? Meanwhile a fighter just needs strength or dex and a decent con. Wizards have more demands on where to spend their points than fighters do.

 

[Oofta]

Crawford mentioned it. Long ago. Hard to find the quote now.

Nerd Immersion interviewed him and he said that.

It's not a super long video but I think you're reading in things that aren't there. What he said (paraphrasing a bit, consolidating and bold added) was

Early on Rune Master class was introduced and received negative feedback so they decided to limit things with subclasses. They've already hit the major roles and archetypes, they feel like everything has already been covered. The only reason to add a new class is if it's something if the campaign demands it. Eberron needed to have an artificer because it's part of the lore and world.​

​

He gave the idea of the mystic and that it would only be added if a campaign demanded it. Relating that back to warlords, what campaign would demand a warlord? I can't think of any. But the very start of this, the example of the Rune Master not being added supports my position. If there were enough demand for these specialty classes that do things other classes already do, they would have considered doing them. The feedback from the UA was that people don't want that.

 

[Minigiant]

It's not a super long video but I think you're reading in things that aren't there. What he said (paraphrasing a bit, consolidating and bold added) was

Early on Rune Master class was introduced and received negative feedback so they decided to limit things with subclasses. They've already hit the major roles and archetypes, they feel like everything has already been covered. The only reason to add a new class is if it's something if the campaign demands it. Eberron needed to have an artificer because it's part of the lore and world.​

​

He gave the idea of the mystic and that it would only be added if a campaign demanded it. Relating that back to warlords, what campaign would demand a warlord? I can't think of any. But the very start of this, the example of the Rune Master not being added supports my position. If there were enough demand for these specialty classes that do things other classes already do, they would have considered doing them. The feedback from the UA was that people don't want that.

But that's what I said.

The Warlord is only tied to the 4e setting. And it's not necessary for it.

So the Warlord isn't coming.

Not because it isn't popular. But because WOTC isn't printing Nentir Vale any time soon.

 

[Oofta]

But that's what I said.

The Warlord is only tied to the 4e setting. And it's not necessary for it.

So the Warlord isn't coming.

Not because it isn't popular. But because WOTC isn't printing Nentir Vale any time soon.

There is no 4E "setting" in the sense that Eberron is a setting. Of all the campaigns that could have demanded a warlord it seems like it would have been Dragonlance and it didn't happen. The main thing is that they feel like the main archetypes have been covered and warlord didn't make the cut.

 

[Oofta]

So I built a test PC using point buy. Thinking about someone who wants to be "good outside of combat".

A mountain dwarf is a good start, although I ended up not fully utilizing the +2 to con. In any case after racial mods I have Str: 16, Dex: 8, Con: 15, Charisma 14. Depending on which way I want to go and character concept, I'll have a 14 and 8 in Intelligence or Wisdom. Because I wanted insight and perception I went with 14 wisdom.

I can tank dex because I'm going for heavy armor. In addition, thanks to Tasha's, I can substitute out proficiencies and get a bunch of tools because the weapon and armor proficiencies. I discuss with my DM and ... I'm going to be a bit of a gambler. Dice, dragon chess, three-dragon ante. Oh, and a disguise kit. I make money on the side challenging people to games. I've also taken herbalism kit and alchemist supplies, maybe I can brew some potions depending on DM. I decide on the Guild Artisan background (I come from a family that brews dwarven ale so Brewer tool kit made sense).

I'm trained in Athletics and Perception from my class, Insight and Persuasion from my background. I have Athletics +5, Insight, Perception, Persuasion +4 at first level. At 4th level if I really want to focus on being a support character I take the Chef feat to get a +1 to Con and give people a bit extra healing and tasty snacks for temp HP (I'd probably try to convince the DM that the "treat" could be liquid).

Sounds like a fun character to me, one that's pretty well rounded on social skills. Not a bard of course, but only ... well ... bards are bards.

 

[Minigiant]

There is no 4E "setting" in the sense that Eberron is a setting. Of all the campaigns that could have demanded a warlord it seems like it would have been Dragonlance and it didn't happen. The main thing is that they feel like the main archetypes have been covered and warlord didn't make the cut.

Again that is false and there is no proof of that.

The truth is that warlord didn't make the PHB cut as some of the original designers were very anti4e and the company was afraid of controversy.

The druid is notoriously low popularly but made the PHB cut. It's among the least played 3 editions.

 

[Oofta]

Again that is false and there is no proof of that.

The truth is that warlord didn't make the PHB cut as some of the original designers were very anti4e and the company was afraid of controversy.

The druid is notoriously low popularly but made the PHB cut. It's among the least played 3 editions.

They added classes they felt fit standard archetypes. Druid is a unique archetype so it was included, there's mention of popularity.

 

[Minigiant]

They added classes they felt fit standard archetypes. Druid is a unique archetype so it was included, there's mention of popularity.

They released A class. One. For a popular setting that can't be printed without it. Like Crawford said.