D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Tony Vargas]

100% this. Imagine trying to create a 5e fighter modeled after the 4e Fighter.

I believe a started a "5e Weaponmaster" (that was the post-Essentials sub-class name for actual Fighters) thread many years ago, can't recall if it was here or on the WotC board.

It did not go much better for the Weaponmaster than for the Warlord.

 

[Minigiant]

With tashas you can come very close. Sentinel feat for marking?

It's close.
The main 3 things from 4e missing in 5e is Weapon based At-wills, Marking, and In Combat non-magical healing.

Quite frankly the fact that it took 10 years to have Attack Options be core or even be expanded is just weird.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You would pretty much have to write your own phb for a 4E style warlord. The basic concept works but duplicating the 4E version of said concept doesn't. Attack granting for example is kinda weak unless there's a rogue involved then it's awesome.

This just isn’t true. The class wouldn’t need to do anything that isn’t already in 5e.

People who are too fixated on it being the 4e Warlord as such will be disappointed regardless, but attack granting is fine, group movement is fine, group THP and individual “spend a HD and heal extra” is fine, handing out damage boosts to allies as part of your special attack is fine. Doing all of that by spending a resource is fine, and doing it without getting any extra damage on your attack at-will is fine.

 

[Zardnaar]

This just isn’t true. The class wouldn’t need to do anything that isn’t already in 5e.

People who are too fixated on it being the 4e Warlord as such will be disappointed regardless, but attack granting is fine, group movement is fine, group THP and individual “spend a HD and heal extra” is fine, handing out damage boosts to allies as part of your special attack is fine. Doing all of that by spending a resource is fine, and doing it without getting any extra damage on your attack at-will is fine.

Except there is extra damage on attacks. Poster child is rogue but the -5/+10 feats also exist.

So your options are to ban or rewrite stuff that outside these boards no one cares about that much.

I think you could make a new class with a more generous amount of Superiority dice with say two attacks, more dice some new effects but you couldn't duplicate the 4E warlord as such. Which is what people insist on in previous threads.

But as long as people keep insisting on that you're basically gonna get ignored by WotC OneD&D isn't doing that either.

It's the equivalent of me insisting AD&D multiclassing is the one true way. Well I'm not gonna get what I want am I?

Wonder how many people have actually played an attack granting class in 5E? I've done it twice wonder if that's a record?

 

[Vaalingrade]

but the -5/+10 feats also exist.

Not for much longer they won't.

Crabs saw to that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not for much longer they won't.

Crabs saw to that.

No ones forcing you to play OneD&D.

 

[Minigiant]

Except there is extra damage on attacks. Poster child is rogue but the -5/+10 feats also exist.

So your options are to ban or rewrite stuff that outside these boards no one cares about that much.

I think you could make a new class with a more generous amount of Superiority dice with say two attacks, more dice some new effects but you couldn't duplicate the 4E warlord as such. Which is what people insist on in previous threads.

But as long as people keep insisting on that you're basically gonna get ignored by WotC OneD&D isn't doing that either.

It's the equivalent of me insisting AD&D multiclassing is the one true way. Well I'm not gonna get what I want am I?

Wonder how many people have actually played an attack granting class in 5E? I've done it twice wonder if that's a record?

Attack granting was overrated in importance.

The biggest hurdle was frequency.

The battlemaster had too few superiority dices to be a archer, bordyguard, brawler, duelist, gladiator, hoplite, lancer, outrider, pugilist, shock trooper, skirmisher, or strategist. 4 is way to low.

I bet if people could trade Action Surge for 4 more die, many would.

 

[Umbran]

It'd be an equally reasonable question as to whether applying magical healing of the traditional laying-on-hands variety is a strong fictional trope as a moment-by-moment thing.

Sure. If you find that question valuable. Have fun with it.

For me, this is a "whataboutism" approach - the implication being that if I don't treat two items exactly the same, then the reasoning on one of them is somehow faulty, and my analysis suspect. This isn't solid logic, though - it is a form of the tu quoque fallacy.

You might want to note that I wasn't the one who brought up fantasy trope/theme as a justification for classes in this thread. I merely pointed out that it wasn't a great support for the warlord class as we have seen it implemented.

I am more than happy to note that the specific combat timescale actions that many D&D classes are known for aren't great representations of fantasy literature. I know Merlin and Gandalf don't throw around multiple fireballs in a minute, and I'm cool with that. I don't try to use fast fireballs as a trope, or combat healing as a trope, to justify wizards and clerics. So, there's no mismatch in my logic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

WotC reversed course on the last one

The truth is there really is nothing the 4e warlord does that 5e can't handle.

The big question is why it doesn't. Because I agree that you can get the same sort of characters without snapping the game. But without Inspiring Word recovering hp and bringing people back to the fight you don't have it.

1. Brash Assault is jus Reckless Attack but you give it to enemies

That would work - reckless attack to use against the warlord in specific. Thanks

 

[Zardnaar]

The big question is why it doesn't. Because I agree that you can get the same sort of characters without snapping the game. But without Inspiring Word recovering hp and bringing people back to the fight you don't have it.

That would work - reckless attack to use against the warlord in specific. Thanks

I think if you added a new use if superiority dice. Either they function as cure spells or add to healing when one spends a hit dice.

Spend xyz amount of dice to recover a hit dice.

And have them scale eg one dice of healing, double it, then triple it.

Gets two attacks a round at level 5 or grant grant the dice as a bonus action and the only attack they get scales at say half the rate of a rogue (see artificer).

Probably just Gove them a short rest lay on hands ability that scales independently of Superiority dice.

Magical healing kinda sucks in 5E though so idk what rate you would allow it.