D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Minigiant]

That’s def part of it. But I don’t particularly have a problem with martial healing personally. It’s just I recognize it is against enough peoples play style that it’s typically best avoided.

That said, I think temp hp is actually better conceptually for warlords than healing. Temp hp applies to fresh ally’s. Something a leader should be inspiring to fight better.

The fighter has self healing of real HP.

Honestly the 2023 5e community is different from the 2013 community who filled out the DNDN playtest.

I think today's community, the one that is majority under age 40 and about 25% newcomers, have not problem with warlords healing HP.

 

[Zardnaar]

The fighter has self healing of real HP.

Honestly the 2023 5e community is different from the 2013 community who filled out the DNDN playtest.

I think today's community, the one that is majority under age 40 and about 25% newcomers, have not problem with warlords healing HP.

I don't think they would care or even know what a warlord is.

Younger 5E players I'm seeing would have been toddlers or pre teems when 4E launched.

Online they're the grognards alot of indifference to playtest

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think they would care or even know what a warlord is.

Younger 5E players I'm seeing would have been toddlers or pre teems when 4E launched.

Online they're the grognards alot of indifference to playtest

Younger 5e players would be 10-15 in 2008. Not toddlers. People in their 20s now would be teens then.

The 2013 DNDN Playtest was dominated by older D&D fans who ended up playing PF and OSR due to the high threshold in the 2013 surveys

 

[Neonchameleon]

It’s weird watching you describe everything so brilliantly earlier and then moving back to this tired old argument.

High level. There are certain things 5e should not have in the game. Maybe 3pp but def not Wotc d&d. I don’t think 5e should have a 4e warlord. But I do think 5e should have a warlord - the only caveat is that it needs to be a 5e warlord and not a 4e warlord and most 4e warlord fans won’t accept anything other than the 4e warlord. All 10,000 powers - including at wills, all class features, healing, all utility powers, and it all needs to come online by level 3.

This appears to be a direct accusation of bad faith, and one that comes entirely from your imagination. No one is asking for every single epic utility power. And the idea that it should all come online by level 3 has no textual support at all so far as I can tell. Indeed the people who want warlords are normally precisely those who criticise the battlemaster not getting higher level maneuvers that wouldn't be appropriate at low levels.

That it would be pretty easy to implement a version of Inspiring Word, the single power common to literally all warlords and they got at level 1, and possibly half a dozen other low level iconic powers (I've yet to see anything mentioned higher than level 3) and 5e refuses to do it is a whole different kettle of fish. There are a number of other iconic powers people would like to see implemented. But a "warlord" who can't restore hit points is like a wizard with no spells of range greater than self.

Essentially an impossible ask - and then because I push back on that impossible ask I get accused of not letting people have what they want…

The ask isn't impossible. Your summary of the ask is an out and out strawman. And when you strawman to pretend the ask is impossible then yes you do get pushback.

The bottom line is - no possible 5e warlord interpretation is going to make 4e warlord fans happy.

The bottom line is there has never been anything close to a serious attempt to make 4e warlord fans happy. Instead it was pandering to grogs by Mearls himself strawmanning the way warlords work as "shouting hands back on". And the "no non magical healing" mafia is non-existent outside a few old-skewing areas given we've had Second Wind on the fighter for almost a decade and somehow they haven't left in disgust.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Frogreavers on the money a lot of said long ago one needs to compromise on the warlord but no one did.

Here we are no Warlord. Or Psion. Or decent artificer. Or a good encounter system or a......

We have a Psion. It's called the Aberrant Mind. We have an Artificer.

What happened was that grognards refused to compromise on the one thing common to all warlords (Inspiring Word restoring hp) and by doing so drove any meaningful version of it out of the game as part of the anti-4e edition war.

The question to ask yourself while advocating compromise is whether you think the Aberrant Mind as Psion and the current Artificer are an improvement over there being a void. If you think that they are a bad thing then you're the one advocating for no compromise and that you should hold out for 100% rather than the common elements.

 

[Zardnaar]

We have a Psion. It's called the Aberrant Mind. We have an Artificer.

What happened was that grognards refused to compromise on the one thing common to all warlords (Inspiring Word restoring hp) and by doing so drove any meaningful version of it out of the game as part of the anti-4e edition war.

The question to ask yourself while advocating compromise is whether you think the Aberrant Mind as Psion and the current Artificer are an improvement over there being a void. If you think that they are a bad thing then you're the one advocating for no compromise and that you should hold out for 100% rather than the common elements.

Aberrant mind isn't a psion the Artificer is an artificer its just not a very good class power wise.

I don't cae that much about psionics if they make them great if not oh well.

 

[Zardnaar]

Younger 5e players would be 10-15 in 2008. Not toddlers. People in their 20s now would be teens then.

The 2013 DNDN Playtest was dominated by older D&D fans who ended up playing PF and OSR due to the high threshold in the 2013 surveys

There's 16 year Olds playing 5E at the store we're looking at selling them Xanathars for cheap as we upgrade to the white boxed set ones.

Similar age to me anyway when I started. So yeah toddlers in 2008 that was 15 years ago.

Younger players in my group are late 20s they haven't played anything pre 5E. Two of then are playing OSR tomorrow night for the first time. One would be 12 when 4E came out knows virtually nothing about it the other one has been buying OSR product or POD AD&D from USA.

Castles and Crusades OSR .

 

[Minigiant]

There's 16 year Olds playing 5E at the store we're looking at selling them Xanathars for cheap as we upgrade to the white boxed set ones.

Similar age to me anyway when I started. So yeah toddlers in 2008 that was 15 years ago.

Younger players in my group are late 20s they haven't played anything pre 5E. Two of then are playing OSR tomorrow night for the first time.

16 year olds aren't a large percentage of the book purchasers of 5e nor the community at large. They are likely as big as fans of the 60+ end of the scale.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It really is similar to the psionics are magic/psionics are different thing. One side wants something, the other side doesn't just not want it - all they'd have to do is not use it - they can't accept letting anyone else have it (in the current edition, specifically, because, like, the old books are still there).

3.5 had psionics are magic/psionics are different, it was a choice. How, in a game as otherwise vague, malleable, and famously"just a starting point" as 5e, can a choice be anathema?

5e has psionics. It even has a power point Psion in the Aberrant Mind that can augment its abilities the way psions of yore could augment their powers by upcasting them and can trade slots for points losslessly.

What 5e does not have is literally 70 pages of spells to support its caster-psionicist the way 2e and 3.X did. And that's how a choice can be anathema. 5e just isn't interested in publishing 70 pages of rules outside the PHB just to support a single non-core class. And as a DM I'm not interested in letting you run a non-PHB class with 70 pages of rules.

And if you want psionics to be explicitly different to magic 5e also has the Soulknife, the Psi Warrior, and the Astral Self Monk - which unlike the Psion work more like the psionicists I read about in other sources than slightly tweaked mages. It's also made the consistent world building decision to tie Psionics to the Far Realm.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Aberrant mind isn't a psion the Artificer is an artificer its just not a very good class power wise.

I don't cae that much about psionics if they make them great if not oh well.

The Aberrant Mind has literally every feature of a Psion except the name and working off spells it doesn't share. It is much much more a Psion than the Battlemaster is a warlord.