The Deadliest Archer of Them All

[Mistwell]

Oh, and my favorite archer is indeed a cleric with the Elf and Time domains (Labelas Enoreth, from FR, offers both of these).

Interesting.

I took a look at these two domains. I see the true strike, cat's grace, haste, and point blank shot feat as contributing to being a good archer. However, those spells can only be used one time a day (unless you are using a system that allows you to swap out any regular spell for any domain spell, which I think I have heard about before). Is it really worth being an archer-based character if all you have is three spells and one extra feat for it?

 

[Skaros]

Oh, and my favorite archer is indeed a cleric with the Elf and Time domains (Labelas Enoreth, from FR, offers both of these). This character will be able to match any non-epic DR using greater magic weapon (and hopefully can come up with an epic spell or two that accomplishes the same at epic levels), and has the usual spells and turning ability of a straight cleric to boot! Unbeatable, IMHO...

Not to mention the sort of instant respect among elves that comes with being a priest of labelas. Also, the cool roleplay of a servant of the elven god of time (among other things).

I was looking for a way to make an unusually disciplined elven archer...probably a monk/fighter combo, but couldn't get any of the 4 archer prestige classes to really jive with my character concepts.

Instead I'm thinking I'll abandon it, and create an archer instead using Labelas Enoreth.

-Skaros

 

[Kai Lord]

Not to mention the sort of instant respect among elves that comes with being a priest of labelas. Also, the cool roleplay of a servant of the elven god of time (among other things).

I was looking for a way to make an unusually disciplined elven archer...probably a monk/fighter combo, but couldn't get any of the 4 archer prestige classes to really jive with my character concepts.

Instead I'm thinking I'll abandon it, and create an archer instead using Labelas Enoreth.

The best part about an Archer Cleric is the "and they cast spells" part. They can accomplish nowhere near what an archer PrC can do with a bow, however.

 

[dead_radish]

Um.

Cat's Grace lasts 1 hour/level. One cast is all you need. Empower it first.

Haste lets you make boots.

True strike hits when it counts.

But let's look at what _else_ a cleric gets.

Greater Magic Weapon. +5 at 15th level. That beats the Arcane Archer.

Divine Favor. +1 to hit/3 levels. Another +5 at 15th lvl (that's a divine bonus).

Divine Power. Fighter Bab, 18 str, bonus hp. Persistent spell that for all day goodness.

Magical Vestements. Don't get hit.

A single level in templar gets weapon specialization.

And then, on top of this (all of which makes them far superior to most archers), they get to use the rest of their cleric spells! They devoted perhaps half their spells (on the high side, but...) to being a better archer than the archer. The other half let them cure wounds, summon allies, divine, and generally muck about with people!

At the lowest levels, the fighter is a _bit_ better off (slightly higher bab). That's only a small bonus, though. When you get into AA/OoTBI/DS levels, the cleric is already outstripping them. At 14+, the cleric is all the way better. The only time the cleric loses out is when they are awakened and attacked, having 0 rounds to prep. And then they still have all the clerical options.

 

[Kai Lord]

Um.

Cat's Grace lasts 1 hour/level. One cast is all you need. Empower it first.

Haste lets you make boots.

True strike hits when it counts.

But let's look at what _else_ a cleric gets.

Greater Magic Weapon. +5 at 15th level. That beats the Arcane Archer.

Divine Favor. +1 to hit/3 levels. Another +5 at 15th lvl (that's a divine bonus).

Divine Power. Fighter Bab, 18 str, bonus hp. Persistent spell that for all day goodness.

Magical Vestements. Don't get hit.

A single level in templar gets weapon specialization.

And then, on top of this (all of which makes them far superior to most archers), they get to use the rest of their cleric spells! They devoted perhaps half their spells (on the high side, but...) to being a better archer than the archer. The other half let them cure wounds, summon allies, divine, and generally muck about with people!

At the lowest levels, the fighter is a _bit_ better off (slightly higher bab). That's only a small bonus, though. When you get into AA/OoTBI/DS levels, the cleric is already outstripping them. At 14+, the cleric is all the way better. The only time the cleric loses out is when they are awakened and attacked, having 0 rounds to prep. And then they still have all the clerical options.

Whoopedy do. The Peerless Archer gets to add up to +20 per arrow on a Power Shot (combine that with Manyshot) plus 4d6 of sneak attack damage. His Sharpshooting ability negates all but total cover. Oooh the cleric gets an extra +5 from divine favor. BFD. The best thing about the cleric is he might be able to use Miracle to wish himself into a real archer (ie. Peerless) for the duration of the spell.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Can an elven cleric of Labelas be an effective archer? Yes. Is it as good as an Arcane Archer, Peerless Archer, or one of the other PrCs? That's debatable.

The biggest difference is the cleric's reliance on spells. This is an important limitation, although it's not necessarily limiting if you've got a lenient (or naive) DM. Spells take time to cast. Spells can be dispelled. Spells don't work in antimagic areas. Spells run out. Spells must be prepared (i.e., don't get caught unprepared). Maybe 80 or 90% of the time, none of these things will be problematic. But that's not the same as having real skills.

From a balance perspective, a super-buffed character probably should be better than a non-buffed or mildly buffed character. That's more an issue of the level of magic in a D&D game than character effectiveness, and at high levels, everything is skewed towards high magic characters.

Clerics archers have no cover penetration. If your opponents never fight from cover, no problem. But a character with nine-tenths cover gets a +10 AC bonus! The Peerless Archer can cut that to only a +2 bonus, effectively gaining an additional +8 attack bonus on top of everything. An Arcane Archer's seeker arrow or phase arrow will completely ignore that +10. "Then my cleric casts True Strike," you say. Okay, but how many of those do you have prepared, and it takes an action to cast it. The Peerless Archer can penetrate cover all day long.

How many Greater Magic Weapons does the cleric have prepared? In a high level, combat intensive campaign, I imagine it would be quite easy to go through more than 50 arrows a day. The cleric runs out; the Arcane Archer does not.

And clerics just suck in their skills. Even with their spells, they're no match for the Arcane Archer's or Deepwood Sniper's stealth. Clerics can't Spot to save their lives. Spot is such an important skill to an archer that every archery-focused PrC seems to have it (all the WotC ones do). What do you do if you're in the middle of a jungle and being pelted by arrows, but can't tell where they're coming from?

So, yes, the cleric archer is an effective archer and very effective character. Does it outdo a real archer at his own game? I don't think so.

 

[Immort]

I gotta jump in on the side of the cleric archer here. My first 3E character ever was a paladin turned cleric archer. I ain't sayin' that +20 to damage ain't great, but ya gotta suck 20 points offa yer bab ta do it. Sure yer primary attack is gunna do just fine, as is the second one ya get with rapid shot, but by the 4th and 5th attacks, yer gunna be in real danger of missing. The cleric has +6 from divine favor, +5 from his magic arrows (GMW), and an addtional +5 from his bow (GMW again) so right there he has got +13 ta hit AND damage (assumin' the Peerless twirp has his +3 arrow ability workin') that the PA can't access.

Now it is safe to assume that by 20th level everybody will have a +5 mighty bow, and we can assume everyone has a great dex and an 18 strength, so lets break it down a bit.

20, 15, 10, 5 for the bab. -2 for the rapid shot leaves you at
18, 18, 13, 8, 3. This will be where they both begin. Assumin equal dex, both having weapon focus, equal bows, so we weon't even bring those numbers into the equation.

Takin' his power attack with the bow, PA looks like this:
-2, -2, -7, -12, -17 but we can safely assume he is doin' 8 points more per hit (as the other factors equal out, (specialization can be had if the cleric takes the aforementioned level of templar))

If we give both example characters a 28 dex via whatever method ya want, weapon focus, a +5 bow, bracers of archery, and point blank shot, (ain't handin' either character magic arrows cuz face it, how many people can afford to pay 50000 gp for every ten rounds of combat for +5 arrows) so we can add 18 to each bab.

PA gets up to +3 arrows right? So we will give him that. So we will add +18 to his scores.

19, 19, 14, 9, 4. If yer shootin' at a 30 ac (not a really difficult ac for a CR 20 encounter) you can really only count on 2-3 hits and that may be pushing it. So if we calculate +4 str, +3 arrow, +5 bow, +1 point blank, +2 spec, +1 bracers, +20 from power attack,
we land on +36. We'll give a high average of 5 damage per arrow for 41 points per successful hit. Averaging it out based on bab we come up with (for simplcity we skip crits):
20.5, 20.5, 10.25, 2.05, 2.05 for an average damage of 55.35.

Cleric comes up with all the same damge bonuses the PA has minus the power attack. To this he adds Divine Favor and +5 arrows stead of +3.

44, 44, 39, 34, 29. So only missing on a 1. Cleric's average damage comes out to 29 per successful hit.

27.55, 27.55, 27.55, 27.55, 27.55 for and average damage of 137.75.

Add to this the fact that the cleric can heal himself several times per day, dispel magic, and do all sorts of other little goodies like flame striking and blade barrier, and fire storm. Plus all the other spells.

As fer cover, I'm thinkin' yer gunna run from cover when ya git hit by a blade barrier. Yer in a jungle getting pelted? Firestorm 'em all and let god sort 'em out. Yer in anti-magic? Course that is gonna suck, but the truth is it tends to limit all the players that way. Yer left with yer base bab, yer feats and yer base stats. Arcane archer gets nuked, PA is lookin' abit better than the cleric but only in bab and only if he aint power attackin'. Damage is going to stay balanced cuz he can't power attack without all those other bonuses to hit. (not that he can all that well with them)

Long and the short of it is yer peerless archer is cryin to his mommy cuz he can't hang with the big dog.

-Immort

 

[Kai Lord]

The Peerless Archer crafts arrows up to +5 enchantment, not +3, and he doesn't need to blow his entire BAB on Power Shot if he's in danger of missing. Anything above +5 negates and trumps the cleric's divine favor.

Then he gets rushed by five attackers. With Combat Reflexes, he brutalizes them all with Attacks of Opportunity. Your cleric just gets mauled.

Then there's cover. Remember when Legolas and Aragorn were nailing orcs through the cracks in the door in Moria? Yeah, that's the Peerless Archer baby, a sharpshooter through and through. Your cleric is just another dork pegging the door.

Last but not least, 24 points of sneak attack damage....

Keep reminding yourself of the cleric's spells, maybe he can use them to heal his ego.

 

[Crothian]

The Peerless Archer crafts arrows up to +5 enchantment, not +3, and he doesn't need to blow his entire BAB on Power Shot if he's in danger of missing. Anything above +5 negates and trumps the cleric's divine favor.

Then he gets rushed by five attackers. With Combat Reflexes, he brutalizes them all with Attacks of Opportunity. Your cleric just gets mauled.

Then there's cover. Remember when Legolas and Aragorn were nailing orcs through the cracks in the door in Moria? Yeah, that's the Peerless Archer baby, a sharpshooter through and through. Your cleric is just another dork pegging the door.

Last but not least, 24 points of sneak attack damage....

Keep reminding yourself of the cleric's spells, maybe he can use them to heal his ego.

Nice. And you didn't have to bring out the trump card.

 

[Immort]

If yer craftin yer arrows yer still ahs ta pay 25000 gp fer every 50 ya use, good luck keepin' up that exchange rate bucko. As fer trumpin the divine favor, yer gotta go over +6 and yer still losin' bab ta do it. Against ANY kind of ac yer gonna end up with less damage. As I said, blade barrier makes cover pretty much useless. Oh and in my example, you'll notice that the cleric's bab was SO much higher than the PA's that the +10 from cover wouldn't even faze him in the slightest.

My ego is intact.

-Immort