The Deadliest Archer of Them All

[Illuminae]

Penetrating Cover and Concealment


* AA - Seeker Arrow 1/day, completely negates cover and concealment (except for total cover), Phase Arrow 1/day - negates all cover, even total, and concealment and armor modifiers
* OBI - none
* DS - concealment reduction 30%
* PA - reduce cover and concealment by up to 3 steps (e.g., from nine-tenths cover to one-quarter)

you forgot something

OBI´s get Banked Shot.
Depending on the situation (very limited), it negates all cover.

 

[Kai Lord]

If yer craftin yer arrows yer still ahs ta pay 25000 gp fer every 50 ya use, good luck keepin' up that exchange rate bucko. As fer trumpin the divine favor, yer gotta go over +6 and yer still losin' bab ta do it. Against ANY kind of ac yer gonna end up with less damage. As I said, blade barrier makes cover pretty much useless. Oh and in my example, you'll notice that the cleric's bab was SO much higher than the PA's that the +10 from cover wouldn't even faze him in the slightest.

My ego is intact.

Your example was inherently flawed in many ways, only one of which being its dependency on averages.

With a non-magical mighty+4 composite longbow, a Peerless Archer can do (1d8 arrow,+4 mighty,+5 arrow enhancement,+2 weapon specialization, +1 Point blank shot+20 Power Shot)x3 Critical=120+4d6 Sneak Attack=144 points of damage WITH ONE SHOT. Throw in a +5 bow with burst or bane effects and he becomes deadlier still.

A Fighter10/Peerless Archer 10 and a 20th level Archer cleric stand side by side. Two young adult white dragons swoop down to attack them. The Peerless Archer nocks a single arrow in his bow and fires. A white dragon is slain. The other dragon veers off in utter shock then swoops in for the kill. The Peerless Archer hands a single arrow to the cleric.

"Your turn," he says.

The cleric can only look at him in awe. "I can't. I simply can't."

And that, my friend, is why your cleric will never be the archer you claim him to be. He is a pretender, nothing more, that relies on the crutch of his gods power to play the role of something he's not.

Lets not even bring Manyshot into the equation. Then our exercises would involve fully grown red dragons.

Bottom line, on the best day of his life, the Peerless Archer will always be better than you. On the best day of your life, he can always do more. Go ahead and cast Blade Barrier. The moment you do you have utterly failed as an archer, and that is what this discussion is all about.

 

[Numion]

Bottom line, on the best day of his life, the Peerless Archer will always be better than you. On the best day of your life, he can always do more. Go ahead and cast Blade Barrier. The moment you do you have utterly failed as an archer, and that is what this discussion is all about.

Which is it: Clerics don't make good archers or Peerless Archers are a tad bit overpowered?

IMC we've had a full-blown OotBI and a cleric archer. While the OotBI can deal out more damage in optimal conditions, the cleric has nothing to be shamed of either. I think it's just crazy that PAs get power attack. That's the most retarded idea I've ever heard. 5 minutes of playtest should've revealed that that idea is way off. (Because of the high attack bonuses of archers.)

 

[Kai Lord]

Which is it: Clerics don't make good archers or Peerless Archers are a tad bit overpowered?

IMC we've had a full-blown OotBI and a cleric archer. While the OotBI can deal out more damage in optimal conditions, the cleric has nothing to be shamed of either. I think it's just crazy that PAs get power attack. That's the most retarded idea I've ever heard. 5 minutes of playtest should've revealed that that idea is way off. (Because of the high attack bonuses of archers.)

There's nothing wrong with Power Shot. A cleric has Harm/Quicken Inflict Light Wounds. A Wizard has Time Stop/Delayed Blast Fireball/Gate/Wail of the Banshee etc. What is inherently wrong with a warrior dishing out a little smack of his own?

And clerics do make good archers, in the same way Michael Jordan made a good baseball player.

 

[Immort]

With a non-magical mighty+4 composite longbow, a Peerless Archer can do (1d8 arrow,+4 mighty,+5 arrow enhancement,+2 weapon specialization, +1 Point blank shot+20 Power Shot)x3 Critical=120+4d6 Sneak Attack=144 points of damage WITH ONE SHOT. Throw in a +5 bow with burst or bane effects and he becomes deadlier still.

So whut yer sayin is, IF you get initiative and can use yer sneak attack, IF they are within 30 feet, IF you max out power attack AND still manage to threat despite the fact that yer bab is drastically reduced, AND follow up with a crit, AND roll MAX damage on EVERY DIE, THEN and only then, can you possibly hope to compete with the cleric's archery? (interestin' to note that ya had ta pick a sorry little young adult white dragon ta make yer scenario work)

Problem is, I have detailed an archer who is ENORMOUSLY capable in every situation regardless of variables, will ALWAYS have a better BAB then the PA even if he ain't usin' power attack, will therefore always do more damage with a full round action unless Kord walks up and dumps ALL of his luck into you at which point you can get ONE good shot.

And as fer averages, that does tend ta be the benchmark most folks use ta determine overall effectivness of a character, seein as how an AVERAGE is what is going to occur most of the time. Sayin' that when every possible thing defies the law of averages on every level that yer example is effective is patently absurd.

-Immort

 

[Numion]

There's nothing wrong with Power Shot. A cleric has Harm/Quicken Inflict Light Wounds. A Wizard has Time Stop/Delayed Blast Fireball/Gate/Wail of the Banshee etc. What is inherently wrong with a warrior dishing out a little smack of his own?

Well.. just that without power shot archers generally deal more damage than meleers. This is an observation from my campaign from level 1 to 20. With power shot, archer would deal much more damage than a meleer of equal level. IMHO that's just wrong. But you are right that fighter types should have smack equal to the clerics / wizards.

And clerics do make good archers, in the same way Michael Jordan made a good baseball player.

Naah... cleric archer beats the crap out of a fighter archer. It's just that the archer power through PrCs has increased out of proportions. OotBI was quite bad IMO, but still usable. (If you don't mind 250 pts / damage per round at level 18), but Peerless archer just seems plain wrong to me.

ps. I don't allow arrows & bow +'s stack in my game. The archer still deals most damage out. Neither do I allow Harm, and wail of the banshee is on the way out. That's the kind of nazi DM I am

 

[Kai Lord]

So whut yer sayin is, IF you get initiative and can use yer sneak attack, IF they are within 30 feet, IF you max out power attack AND still manage to threat despite the fact that yer bab is drastically reduced, AND follow up with a crit, AND roll MAX damage on EVERY DIE, THEN and only then, can you possibly hope to compete with the cleric's archery? (interestin' to note that ya had ta pick a sorry little young adult white dragon ta make yer scenario work)

Yes, and its interesting that your cleric can never, ever, take that little white dragon out in one shot. And really all the PA needs is a critical. Even if he rolled average on his damage dice your cleric still isn't going to come anywhere close.

Of course, your complaint that I've somehow stacked the deck in the PA's favor is nothing more than a smokescreen to cover up the fact the PA can simply do more damage with his bow than your cleric can on the best day of his life. So set up the absolute best conditions you can imagine for the cleric. It doesn't matter. It simply isn't good enough.

Problem is, I have detailed an archer who is ENORMOUSLY capable in every situation regardless of variables, will ALWAYS have a better BAB then the PA even if he ain't usin' power attack, will therefore always do more damage with a full round action unless Kord walks up and dumps ALL of his luck into you at which point you can get ONE good shot.

Typing in caps in no way puts your cleric in the same league as the Peerless Archer. He'll "ALWAYS" have a better BAB? Even after his buffs are dispelled? In an anti-magic field? Before he prepares his spells? If he pisses off his god? Yeah, that's what I thought. You can set up situations where the PA is at a disadvantage (such as when he rolls poorly) and I can set up situations where your cleric is a glorified nothing with his bow (like when his divine crutches are unavailable).

The issue is what do these guys do at their best, when none of their abilities are crippled? What does your cleric do? He gets shown up by the Peerless Archer. That's just the way it is.

It doesn't mean your cleric isn't a valid addition to the party. After my Peerless Archer works up an appetite beating your cleric in an archery contest, you can use your magic to create a nice little meal to fill his belly, and some water to parch his thirst.

 

[hong]

Yes, and its interesting that your cleric can never, ever, take that little white dragon out in one shot. And really all the PA needs is a critical.

If I was a peerless archer, I sure as heck wouldn't want to be staking my life on rolling a natural 20 on one attack roll.

And!

Even if he rolled WANGER on his WANGER dice your cleric still isn't going to WANGER anywhere WANGER .

Of course, your WANGER that I've somehow WANGERed the deck in the WANGER's favor is nothing more than a WANGER to cover up the fact the WANGER can simply do more WANGER with his WANGER than your cleric can on the best WANGER of his life. So set up the absolute best WANGERs you can WANGER for the cleric. It doesn't WANGER. It simply isn't WANGER enough.

...

Typing in WANGERs in no way puts your cleric in the same WANGER as the Peerless WANGER . He'll "WANGER" have a better WANGER? Even after his WANGERs are WANGERed? In an anti-WANGER field? Before he prepares his WANGER? If he WANGERs off his god? Yeah, that's what I WANGERed. You can set up WANGERs where the PWANGERA is at a disadWANGER (such as when he WANGERs poorly) and I can set up WANGER where your cleric is a glorified WANGER with his WANGER (like when his divine WANGER are unavailable).

The issue is what do these WANGERs do at their WANGER, when none of their WANGERs are WANGERed? What does your WANGER do? He gets shown up by the Peerless WANGER. That's just the way it WANGERs.

It doesn't mean your WANGER isn't a valid WANGER to the party. After my Peerless WANGER works up a WANGER beating your WANGER in a WANGER contest, you can use your WANGER to create a nice little meal to fill his belly, and some water to parch his thirst.

Hong "deja WANGER" Ooi

 

[Enkhidu]

Just a few quick devil's advocate questions...

I gotta jump in on the side of the cleric archer here. My first 3E character ever was a paladin turned cleric archer. I ain't sayin' that +20 to damage ain't great, but ya gotta suck 20 points offa yer bab ta do it. Sure yer primary attack is gunna do just fine, as is the second one ya get with rapid shot, but by the 4th and 5th attacks, yer gunna be in real danger of missing. The cleric has +6 from divine favor, +5 from his magic arrows (GMW), and an addtional +5 from his bow (GMW again) so right there he has got +13 ta hit AND damage (assumin' the Peerless twirp has his +3 arrow ability workin') that the PA can't access.

Now it is safe to assume that by 20th level everybody will have a +5 mighty bow, and we can assume everyone has a great dex and an 18 strength, so lets break it down a bit.

20, 15, 10, 5 for the bab. -2 for the rapid shot leaves you at
18, 18, 13, 8, 3. This will be where they both begin.

Maybe I'm missing something, but since clerics max out at a BAB of 15 wouldn't the cleric's progression be 15, 10, 5, or 13, 13, 8, 3 with rapid shot? Please let me know if I'm missing something...

Assuming equal dex, both having weapon focus, equal bows, so we won't even bring those numbers into the equation.

Takin' his power attack with the bow, PA looks like this:
-2, -2, -7, -12, -17...

May I ask why you chose to take all of the BAB for Power Attack? In my experience, Power Attack is useful only for situations where you are fairly sure that you'll be hitting with only the "Other" bonuses you may have - basically on low AC creatures. In other situations, you may only feel that you need to apply, oh, say, half of your BAB (which, if I remember correctly is completely in within the strictures of a Power Attack). The new progression would then be 8,8,3,-2,-7, with an additional +10 damage.

...but we can safely assume he is doin' 8 points more per hit (as the other factors equal out, (specialization can be had if the cleric takes the aforementioned level of templar))

Very much agreed, except for the fact that you are comparing a Figher/PA 10/10 vs an Archer Cleric 20, not an Archer Cleric 19/Templar 1.

If we give both example characters a 28 dex via whatever method ya want, weapon focus, a +5 bow, bracers of archery, and point blank shot, (ain't handin' either character magic arrows cuz face it, how many people can afford to pay 50000 gp for every ten rounds of combat for +5 arrows) so we can add 18 to each bab.

PA gets up to +3 arrows right? So we will give him that. So we will add +18 to his scores.

I assume you mean 21 here, as that's what you've used in further calculations.

19, 19, 14, 9, 4.

New progression using the figures for a different Power Attack modifier (above) give 29, 29, 24, 19, 14

If yer shootin' at a 30 ac (not a really difficult ac for a CR 20 encounter) you can really only count on 2-3 hits and that may be pushing it. So if we calculate +4 str, +3 arrow, +5 bow, +1 point blank, +2 spec, +1 bracers, +20 from power attack,
we land on +36. We'll give a high average of 5 damage per arrow for 41 points per successful hit. Averaging it out based on bab we come up with (for simplcity we skip crits):
20.5, 20.5, 10.25, 2.05, 2.05 for an average damage of 55.35.

OK - here's the disclaimer that I'm not very good with statistics, but here goes.

With the adjusted progression, you can see that even the 4th attack the Fighter/PA makes it going to hit 50% of the time (on the roll of an 11 or better). Rather than actually do the math again (which I'm not so sure I could do anyway), we'll use your convention of "% of damage based on likelyhood to hit" based on damage of 31. I come up with 29.5, 29.5, 23.25, 15.5, and 7.75. This comes out to a grand total of 105.5. The judicious use of Power Attack is the factor here.

Cleric comes up with all the same damge bonuses the PA has minus the power attack. To this he adds Divine Favor and +5 arrows stead of +3.

Actually Damage bonuses for the Cleric should be 21 (26, -10 from the Power Attack the PA did, -2 for no Specialization as above, +5 from Divine Favor, +2 from the extra arrow bonues from GMW vs the PA +3).

44, 44, 39, 34, 29. So only missing on a 1. Cleric's average damage comes out to 29 per successful hit.

OK, here's where it get's tricky - I have to rebuild where you got this # from...

All attack bonuses from magic, ability scores, and feats are the same are the same except for the cleric's additional +2 from GMW (over the PA's +3), and Divine Favor. That's an additional +7 on top of the 21 we used above, for a total of 28. However, BAB for the cleric with Rapid Shot is 13, 13, 8, 3 (as shown above). This gives a progression of 41, 41, 36, 31. Each arrow still has a 95% chance to hit.

27.55, 27.55, 27.55, 27.55, 27.55 for and average damage of 137.75.

New damage average per arrow is 26.6. Four hits = 106.4

It looks like we've got equal damage capability when the Cleric is buffed, here.

I would like to note that we did not account for crits here, and the Fighter/PA is much better suited to take advantage of the crits (in the example above, damage bonuses for the Archer Cleric become 23*3 or 69, rather than the Fighter/PA's 26*3 or 78. Considering that Fighter/PA's have the feats available to take Improved Crit without giving up any other Missles Feat makes them pretty nasty. The damage gap becomes sick if the Fighter/PA for some reason has a chance to use more BAB for his Power Attack (for example if the AC of the creature had been 20 rather than 30).

For that matter, if the Creature AC had been 40, the Fighter/ PA has the flexibility to NOT power Attack. His average damage may go down, but he is still hitting. This flexibility can pay off in the long run.

By the way, how long does Divine Favor last? That seems to be the only real edge that the cleric has in this fracas.

Add to this the fact that the cleric can heal himself several times per day, dispel magic, and do all sorts of other little goodies like flame striking and blade barrier, and fire storm. Plus all the other spells.

Hey, what can I say, clerics are cool.

As fer cover, I'm thinkin' yer gunna run from cover when ya git hit by a blade barrier. Yer in a jungle getting pelted? Firestorm 'em all and let god sort 'em out. Yer in anti-magic? Course that is gonna suck, but the truth is it tends to limit all the players that way. Yer left with yer base bab, yer feats and yer base stats. Arcane archer gets nuked, PA is lookin' abit better than the cleric but only in bab and only if he aint power attackin'. Damage is going to stay balanced cuz he can't power attack without all those other bonuses to hit. (not that he can all that well with them)

Long and the short of it is yer peerless archer is cryin to his mommy cuz he can't hang with the big dog.

-Immort

Actually, if you take a look at the math, the Fighter/PA holds in own in this little contest. By the way, if you really want to make the contest interesting, I suggest you trick out an Archer Cleric and Stat block him. Then do the same with a really tricked out Fighter/PA. Then try this little contest. The only reason I say this is because your Cleric already seems pretty tricked out, but the Fighter/PA seems like it's not, really.

And I'm spent...

 

[Kai Lord]

If I was a peerless archer, I sure as heck wouldn't want to be staking my life on rolling a natural 20 on one attack roll.

Go read The Hobbit. Then report back when you figure out that it might actually be a nice skill to have. Sometimes one shot is all you get.