The deadliest CR 18 in the world, courtesy of WotC

[Majere]

You are assuming that you can catch the dragon unaware. Why?

We have already discussed this
Dragon CRs are based on you fighting them on your terms. If you are fighting on their terms you need to add about 5-7 to the CR

 

[Scion]

We have already discussed this
Dragon CRs are based on you fighting them on your terms. If you are fighting on their terms you need to add about 5-7 to the CR

That is just silly, dragon CR's should all be increased. That would mean that their CR is done in reverse of everyone elses. For everyone else if you prepare just for them their CR can be somewhere around 4 points 'lower' than listed. But for dragons you, for some reason, have to prepare just to 'maybe' make them appear to be the CR that they are supposed to be?

Nah, this guys CR is definately too low. Most dragons are, so they should all be increased. Haveing very odd ways of doing CR for specific creatures just makes the CR system even less reliable.

Maybe someday wotc will learn

 

[Wrahn]

We have already discussed this
Dragon CRs are based on you fighting them on your terms. If you are fighting on their terms you need to add about 5-7 to the CR

No, it wasn't facing them on your terms, it is being aware of what you are facing and being able to prepare for it. I was giving you that (team fully buffed, even getting iniative, executing your plan). I just assumed the dragon would be aware of the party coming in and gave it enough time to buff itself.

 

[Caliban]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that you can cast a Quickened spell when you take your readied action, because free actions are done during another action you take (PHB, page 139, free actions). Also, it's effectively your turn again when your readied action triggers, that's why your initiative resets.


You can choose to ready just a free action, but I don't think that excludes you from choosing to do a free action as part of your readied action when the time comes.

 

[Lamoni]

1 Question for all the people whining that my plan neesd a very specific conditions to happen.
What precisely can a level 20 party do that is so much more powerful than a level 18 party. What can they do that will make a significant impact unpon this encounter ?

Gold is the first thing I can think of. A level 20 party will have a lot more treasure and resources than a level 17 party. Tell me that doesn't have a significant impact upon any encounter.
Second, there are class abilities. Most classes gain new abilities as you level up. These also make a difference in battle.
Third, the party has access to MORE spells. Maybe not different spells, but more of them. Let's say that the level 18 party had to fight two to three battles to get to the dragon, using 25% of its resources each time. Theoretically, they would still have 25-50% of their resources left and still be able to defeat the dragon. In practice this isn't very true. Having more spells is a very large benefit.
Fourth, the spells are more powerful since so many are dependent on caster level.
Fifth, the party has more hit points and better saves so they might be able to survive one more blow or make a save that they would otherwise fail. This leads to one more round of attacks against the dragon which could end up making a huge difference.
Sixth, any fighter classes will have a higher BAB and therefore be able to actually land more hits or sink more arrows into the dragon.

If you assume the 20th level party hasn't found any treasure since level 17, and the level seventeen party just woke up and had all their spells ready, AND that there is not going to be any threat AFTER defeating the dragon so it is okay to use all your resources, then it is true that a level 17 party is not much different than a level 20 party.

I still can't believe that people are still arguing that CR 18 is appropriate. If I was DM and the players were able to kill this dragon, I would feel very guilty if I only gave experience appropriate for a CR 18 opponent.

 

[reiella]

I would like to point everyone's attention to any other CR 18 in the monster manual. For a real comparison- let's look at a Mature Adult red dragon.


Both are dragons, and both are huge. One is obviously highly superior (the Steel Dragon). The Steel Dragon would also defeat the Red Dragon in every single head-to-head battle, and neither has any weakness to the other. And yet they're the same CR?

The comparison might be better off against a metallic however, as some of those points are simply distinctions between a Metallic and a Chromatic dragon [notable, the two breath weapons aspect].

Even with that, the Great Wyrm Steel looks alot more impressive than a Very Old Brass (CR 19).

The only bits in benefit of the Brass Dragon are it's immunity to fire.

 

[UltimaGabe]

We have already discussed this
Dragon CRs are based on you fighting them on your terms. If you are fighting on their terms you need to add about 5-7 to the CR

Once again, I draw your attention to the Mature Adult Red Dragon. They're both dragons, and are therefore using the same CR system- which doesn't make any sense, but that's beside the point- but one of them is obviously highly superior.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I'd also like to mention, of course, that by the rules, you cannot cast a quickened spell in addition to a readied action. There are probably a million ad-hoc house rules for this, but by the rules, you cannot.

The reason is this: First off, you can't take any actions when it isn't your turn, aside from very few specific free actions, regardless of their time. Therefore, you can't cast Quickened spells when it isn't your turn.

The "Ready" action is one exception to this, but the "Ready" action has very precise limitations. You can ready a Partial Action, Move Action, or Free Action- but regardless of what action you ready, the "Ready" action itself takes a Standard Action. So even if you're readying a Free Action, you still have to give up a Standard Action during your turn.

Therefore, you cannot "add on" another Free Action to a Readied action, unless you've somehow managed to give up another Standard Action to ready it. (Which is impossible, thanks to 3.5's haste.)

Therefore, by the Rules As Written, you cannot cast a Quickened Spell in addition to a readied action.

 

[Epametheus]

Heh. I wonder if dragon CRs are so inappropriately low simply so that they'll be worth less treasure & XP than they would be at their "true" CR? A level X party fighting a CR X dragon will probably expend 75% or more of their resources to defeat it, but they get XP as though they had fought a normal CR X monster, and treasure as though they'd fought two or three normal creatures of that CR.

Just speculation on my part, of course. If that really was the logic behind how dragon CR is determined, then the design department would be need to be dragged out and shot.

 

[El Ravager]

Well, tonight I conducted a little test to see just how a CR18 Steel Dragon would do against four 18th level PCs. I had two friends create a party of four 18th level characters and then I had them duke it out with the dragon.

The party won. I don't have the time at the moment, but I will post some details later.

Mirror of opposition -- very nasty.