The deadliest CR 18 in the world, courtesy of WotC

[UltimaGabe]

In other words, no matter what kind of plan you've got, this dragon is NOT a CR 18.

 

[Staffan]

Is a house rule... At least from my interp of the SRD document.

Something 'clues' others to a spell being cast with no obvious sign, after all, it will still provoke an AoO (or at the very least, force the individual to Cast Defensively).

Not saying it isn't a reasonable house rule, given that I dunno what to call the 'PERSON CASTING A SPELL' magic sign that floats over someone's head.

I think you misunderstand what the AoO is supposed to represent. The idea is that a person in melee is dodging, parrying, and trying to find openings for attacks all through the round. Since both combatants are doing this, all these attack attempts are resolved on each combatant's turn. However, someone casting a spell can't do the dodging/parrying part while he's doing so, which means there are more opportunities for the other guy to get one of his attacks through. This is reflected by an attack of opportunity. Casting defensively means you keep up the dodging stuff while casting, which is kind of difficult - hence the required Concentration roll.

 

[Majere]

You cant polymorph into an ooze anymore

Good point about the dim lock, but beads of karma will improve his chances to only a 12 to beat SR. Which is a fairly decent chance.

And Its a house rule, but if a caster said to me I ready to cast SPELL as a dispel whenever the dragon starts to cast Id allow it. It will take a fairly special situation for the mage to geuss the right spell - if the geuss wrong they waste the spell.

Oh and a rod of negation will protest your cleric and mage from nasties like maze or finger of death. And they still have one hand free to cast with !

Just some more thoughts

Majere

 

[UltimaGabe]

Oh and a rod of negation will protest your cleric and mage from nasties like maze or finger of death. And they still have one hand free to cast with !

First off, nobody would cast Maze on a Cleric or Mage, since they have good Will saves. That's why I suggested the Fighter. And I also Suggested Wail of the Banshee rather than Finger of Death, as it's an area effect, and thus not subject to a rod of negation.

But I think we've established that given enough time, it's possible to somehow manage to beat this thing with an 18th-level party. But it would by no means be easy, and it is NOT a CR 18.

 

[James McMurray]

Spellcraft: The text in the skill description says to use the table. I'd say that the text in the skill itself overrides secondary text in the counterspell section. But it doesn't really matter. If its a free action, its one that readying acounterspell allows you to take out of turn. If its a nonation, you can do it out of turn as well.

Dimensional Lock: Good catch! I had missed the SR line. Was it SR-less in 3.0?

UltimaGabe: Maze doesn't allow a save. Its an intelligence check. Clerics are usually good target for it.

 

[Will]

And Its a house rule, but if a caster said to me I ready to cast SPELL as a dispel whenever the dragon starts to cast Id allow it. It will take a fairly special situation for the mage to geuss the right spell - if the geuss wrong they waste the spell.

The problem is that a spell that has no components is essentially the dragon sitting there thoughtfully.

The only way to tell the dragon _might_ be casting a spell is if it is not casting defensively and it allows for an Attack of Opportunity. Because you could notice 'hey, he's just sitting there not actively dodging... waaaait a minute...'

Hmm. Maybe Detect Thoughts or Detect Magic might be allowed to notice when someone is casting mentally. Or something.

 

[reiella]

The problem is that a spell that has no components is essentially the dragon sitting there thoughtfully.

The only way to tell the dragon _might_ be casting a spell is if it is not casting defensively and it allows for an Attack of Opportunity. Because you could notice 'hey, he's just sitting there not actively dodging... waaaait a minute...'

Hmm. Maybe Detect Thoughts or Detect Magic might be allowed to notice when someone is casting mentally. Or something.

And that's where my concept failure hit for AoO too, especially given a situation where the dragon is trapped by a Forge Cage. Although it doesn't seem like that's too possible unless using a thinblade or dagger right next to the forgecage.

 

[UltimaGabe]

UltimaGabe: Maze doesn't allow a save. Its an intelligence check. Clerics are usually good target for it.

Oh... I guess I was thinking of 3e. Either way, I'd still use it on the Fighter- after all, a Cleric could A. get out of it much easier (using spells), or B. use it to his advantage and wait several rounds buffing himself, or (via Miracle spells or the like) buffing/reviving his allies. The Fighter, however, is probably going to have lower intelligence, and really won't be able to do anything but make his intelligence checks every round.

 

[Scion]

Oh... I guess I was thinking of 3e. Either way, I'd still use it on the Fighter- after all, a Cleric could A. get out of it much easier (using spells), or B. use it to his advantage and wait several rounds buffing himself, or (via Miracle spells or the like) buffing/reviving his allies. The Fighter, however, is probably going to have lower intelligence, and really won't be able to do anything but make his intelligence checks every round.

That would be great!

Dragon: Maze you!
Cleric: yes! I will cast true res, bring back my buddy who just died a few rounds ago, and we'll head back to fight! go us!

 

[James McMurray]

Oh... I guess I was thinking of 3e.

Nope. No save in 3e either.

You're right about clerics using it to buff, but that won't matter. A buffed cleric stepping out of a maze versus a dragon isn't going to survive. Trust me on this (or ask my players ).