The deadliest CR 18 in the world, courtesy of WotC

[HeavyG]

And keep in mind this thing's smart. If he sees that he's at a disadvantage because he's small, what's stopping him from blowing a 1st-level spell slot and casting Enlarge?

It's not a person.

 

[Majere]

Just why exactly would this dragon have nothing up his sleeve but silenced Disintegrates? I know of plenty of Sorcerers who have FAR more tricks than that. Keep in mind, this Dragon can cast WISH several times per day. And Limited wish at that. And he'll be able to cast all of his spells several minutes longer than your Cleric or Wizard, considering he's got a million spells per level.

If it were me, and I were a 21st-level Sorcerer, and I somehow got caught in this, I'd Silently Dimension Door out of the Force Cage. Every round, I'd keep doing this- after all, the Wizard can't have unlimited Force Cages, and Disintegrate won't be doing much with a Dragon's amazing Fortitude Save. Once a round passed where he didn't cast Force Cage, I'd move out of the Silenced area and cast Otto's Irresistable Dance on the Cleric. Since there's no save, he'd be out for at least 2 rounds- so the next round I'd cast Wail of the Banshee. If that didn't kill the anyone, then the next round (assuming the Wizard didn't put up another Force Cage), I'd cast Horrid Wilting. The Wizard and Rogue would either be dead, or down quite a few hit points (20d8 is a nasty thing, especially when Evasion doesn't help). Assuming the Cleric is still out, I'd follow up with a Power Word: Kill. This would almost definitely kill the Wizard and Rogue, especially after the Horrid Wilting. Then I'd Maze the Fighter, and finish off the Cleric at my leisure. Once he was gone, I'd just buff up and wait for the Fighter. And, if at any point he's got an extra turn he doesn't know what to do with, he can always just cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction. That would render everyone's weapons nonmagical (along with all of their other items, that is), and thus the fighter would not be able to overcome his Damage Reduction.

See? I can come up with a plan too.

Read my post.
Dimensional anchor stops all travel spells, he cant dimdoor or anything else out of the cage, the only thing he can do is disitigrate the cage.

Also every round he dim doors out of a force cage (which he cant do but anyway) He is doing nothing to hurt the party, which the fighter rogue/cleric etc are blowing the crap out of the dragon. Of course summoning a Few elder air elementals is a nice way to achieve this without havign to bother with his SR stopping spells.
Death ward will stop finger of death and wail of the banshee. Ottos dance is very nasty, but a contingency with break enchantment will protect the cleric.
Cast spell immunity ottos irresistable dance etc etc on the fighter and the cleric, they now have unbeatable SR. Cast find the path on the fighter and he can get out of the maze in 1 round
The list goes on, to fight a dragon without buffs is clearly insane I was taking most of the protection spells as a given.

As for the other questions.
Free actions are free actions, talking is a free action, I assume you let players talk outside of their turn ?
Or to be a rules lawyer
You can ready a standard action
Casting miracle and a quickened spell is a standard action, because free actions are just that, free.. nothing, a non event.
That is why feather fall is a free action, so you can cast it outside of your turn but in reaction to falling.

Who has to beat any caster level
If you have the same spell prepared you automatically counterspell, you only need a caster level check if you use dispel magic to dispel a different spell.
Hense using readied disintigrates to counter the dragons distintigrates, because that way he doesnt need to roll a caster level check. And I dont need to beat SR beacuse Im not affecting him with a spell, Im counter spelling.

No he cant cast enlarge once inside the cage, he has no room to enlarge into.

And yes my contingency example was a mistake, my apologies there

And No its not fool proof, but its a bloody good plan as things go and has a hig chance of sucess without being beyond the abilities of the party.
As a General rule metamagic spells are not a good choice if you have an option, each time he uses up a silenced spell he has to give up a BETTER spell slot. The sort of spell exchange will always favour the party.

Majere

 

[Scion]

Why does he need to get out of the cage at all? He can blast away with spells all day (via items to help cast them, or his own personal list of feats may allow him to get around it). It is hard to melee him while he is in there after all.

Even failing that, if he manages to kill one or two of them, and make them use up all of their higher level spells before being killed, and that is when they 'are' prepared, then his CR is incredibly out of whack

Plus, with such a short range for the cage, and this guys incredible movement, he can move 500' and still cast a spell!
A couple of greater dispels cast by him, or a single disjunction, and then his breath weapon and no more party.


In the end it seems that if the party is very prepared, gets the drop on him, and then wins initiative then they will have a chance at level 18 (maybe). If not, they are going to be slaughtered without being able to put up a huge amount of fight. Doesnt sound like CR 18 to me, sounds like a min of CR 22.

oohh.. just thought of something, if he does drop down to melee the people then he might be too close to cage, and he could get an enormous amount of attacks in a round (say, a specialy made spell that acts just like righteous might and then empowered/maximised tensors on himself..) that could be just viscious

I like this guy, he is funny.


oh, and about the, 'whenever he uses a silenced spell he is giving up a better option' that is part of the reason why silence as written is way overpowered 2nd level spell, nearly automatic counterspell, stops casters dead unless they give up a ton of options, easy to apply, no save nor sr.. hmm.. But at least this dragon has massive wealth, he can have a few metamagic rods on him somewhere. Spell turning might also be a good option. Does dimensional anchor stop blinking?

 

[Majere]

My first post stated that dragon CR's are based on being prepared
being 500' away is not being prepared.. its spotting him, being prepared means having a plan and in this case part of that plan is getting close to the dragon. Mass invis followed by dimdoor would be one way to get withing range of force cage and still have a chance to pull this off.

And yes he can blast from inside his silenced box, but he can only use up to 7th level spells, which is a big bite out of his power.. no wish. He is a sorcerer.. he can only have so many spells. Once you know what they are cast greater spell immunity on party members and he is pretty neutered.

If there was a spell combination to instantly slay the dragon that would be no fun, but I would think that the plan I put before you gives the party a definate fighting chance.. the dragon is imprisoned in the cage for 36 hours.. that is a long time.. and you can keep him there in definately. Infact at that point you could probably barter with it if you didnt want to kill it because the dragon will know once it is out of disintigrates it is completely helpless. (all you have to do is deny it 8 hours continuous rest and it cant relearn spells ad you can cast cage and dim lock every day until it dies of starvation if needs be.

As I said its not perfect
It would be boring if D&D had perfect spell combinations
But If I can reduce a 21st level sorcerer to casting dimension door every round Id like to think that the dragon has been neutralized in many ways

Majere

 

[James McMurray]

As for the other questions.
Free actions are free actions, talking is a free action, I assume you let players talk outside of their turn ?

Speaking is specifically listed as a free action takable on another's turn. Quickened Spells are not.

Or to be a rules lawyer

Following the rules is a far cry from being a rules lawyer.

You can ready a standard action
Casting miracle and a quickened spell is a standard action, because free actions are just that, free.. nothing, a non event.

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action.

Emphasis added by me. "Or" != "and".

That is why feather fall is a free action, so you can cast it outside of your turn but in reaction to falling.

Feather Fall specifically states it can be cast outside of your turn. Just being a quickened spell oes not allow that.

No he cant cast enlarge once inside the cage, he has no room to enlarge into.

And he's not a person, and thus not a valid target. He could cast Righteous Might (assuming he's one of the dragon types that gets clerical spells). He'd have to do it while outside the cage of course, which means he'd have to either escape and get very far away, or he'd have to cast it beforehand. But then again, if I were expecting a fight, I'd want to gain +4 con, +8 strength, +4 natural armor, reach, and more damage. Casting Righteous Might as one of the first combat actions is not a bad idea at all.

And No its not fool proof, but its a bloody good plan as things go and has a hig chance of sucess without being beyond the abilities of the party.
As a General rule metamagic spells are not a good choice if you have an option, each time he uses up a silenced spell he has to give up a BETTER spell slot. The sort of spell exchange will always favour the party.

Majere

It is a very good plan, and could very well work. However, a very specific plan that has a chance of working does not equate to a CR18 creature. I hope we can all agree on that.

 

[Majere]

AHA!
Have to say I didnt see that line in the SRD
Well like I said that doesnt stop you from holding. At which point you can cast the spells simultaineously.
The dragon wasnt described as being clerical so I assume the rightous thingy is not an option to him.

The point of my posts was ment to be this.
To show that if you are prepared then the CR18 of a dragon is not completely unreasonable because it is within the capabilities of an 18th level party. It might be shy by a point but that would be for the DM to adjudicate.
If this guy hit the party on the fly its probably closer to CR 23 but thats dragons .. they are nasty beasties.

Also note that no other dragons of this CR can be force caged.

Majere

 

[beaver1024]

Just goes to show how underpowered sorcerers are. An epic level sorcerer is only considered to be CR 18. Excellent.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

A level 25 sorceror without any equipment, would only be about CR 20 or so.

This is slightly flawed, in that, for example, a warrior, who hasn't decided to become a monk-like fighter, without equipment, is nearly helpless until they can find at least some sort of simple/martial weapon, better yet, their own weapon or their primary weapon-type they use.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[brehobit]

Doesn't Dimensional anchor allow for spell resistance?

Mark

 

[James McMurray]

Dimensional Anchor does. Dimensional Lock does not. Its an 8th level power that stops dimensional travel in a small (15'?) radius.