The deadliest CR 18 in the world, courtesy of WotC

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wow! that is definitely wonky. It looks like someone was trying to maintain the old philosophy of "dragon CRs should be lower than they really are."

Definitely true.

For a better gauge of a dragon's true CR, multiply by 4/3.

"This guy" might still be a little low...?


Wulf

 

[FireLance]

Well, doing a quick comparison with other CR 18 dragons (3.5e), I've concluded that its CR should probably be a little higher, but not much. The Steel Dragon's main advantages are really its high spellcaster level, and to a lesser extent, its high AC, high hit points and high SR.

High SR can be dealt with - many offensive Conjuration spells ignore SR now. The added boost against 1st to 4th level spells is no worse than a permanent Globe of Invulnerability. High AC can be countered with touch attacks and swarm attacks. High hit points simply means that the fight will last a few rounds longer.

 

[Jhulae]

But thats the point. A party of 4 18th level PC's shouldn't *have* to specifically prepare for a CR 18 encounter.

Wake up, do common morning buffs etc. walk into random cave dungeon, open random door, find CR18 creature, expend 20-25% of resources bringing it down, go to next door.

If this dragon is in that random room, do you really think they can take it out that easily??


Now, it is possible (possible mind you) that the designers use 'lower' CR's for dragons because you are expected to know about them. Their notoriety means you will almost always get a chance to prepare for them... but I may be stretching...

Well, one of our DMs (who may be blowing smoke) said that the CR for a dragon was set for a party who was prepared to fight it. It's more than likely he read that on another board and is wrong, but... Well, lets say you usually don't find dragons just 'hanging around' in dungeons as random encounters. Adventurers get rumors about a dragon in an area, research lair locations, and load up specifically to kill said dragon.

I'd hate to be in a campaign world where dragons were that common... then again, if they were that common, adventurers would already be taking every precaution needed and loading up specifically to kill dragons...

 

[shilsen]

Well, one of our DMs (who may be blowing smoke) said that the CR for a dragon was set for a party who was prepared to fight it. It's more than likely he read that on another board and is wrong, but...

Actually I've seen this a number of times. I don't know who started it, but I believe some of the WotC designers made this comment and that does seem to have been part of the design decision.

Well, lets say you usually don't find dragons just 'hanging around' in dungeons as random encounters. Adventurers get rumors about a dragon in an area, research lair locations, and load up specifically to kill said dragon.

I'd hate to be in a campaign world where dragons were that common... then again, if they were that common, adventurers would already be taking every precaution needed and loading up specifically to kill dragons...

I don't see any logical connection between dragon CRs being based on the assumption that the PCs are prepared for it and dragons being common in a campaign world. Quite the opposite, in fact. If dragons were common and could conceivably occur as random encounters, then there would be a problem with the CR since PCs could just encounter a dragon unexpectedly. But if dragons are rare and important in some manner, then the odds are that PCs will hear about them and (esp. at higher levels) have a way to gain information and prepare themselves for the encounter.

 

[Majere]

Well, one of our DMs (who may be blowing smoke) said that the CR for a dragon was set for a party who was prepared to fight it. It's more than likely he read that on another board and is wrong, but... Well, lets say you usually don't find dragons just 'hanging around' in dungeons as random encounters. Adventurers get rumors about a dragon in an area, research lair locations, and load up specifically to kill said dragon.

I'd hate to be in a campaign world where dragons were that common... then again, if they were that common, adventurers would already be taking every precaution needed and loading up specifically to kill dragons...

Actually I have seen it stated time and time again by game designers that the CR for dragons are based on the assumption that the party knows ther eis a dragon and that they are PREPARED for the combat. They have had TIME to put up dlay poison on everyone, to cast truesight.

Oh and if it is only huge its ed
First round the celric readys to cast silence 5' infront of the dragon when the mage casts force cage. The Wizard force cages it (barred version 20*20) with no save and no SR and the cleric then silences the dragon. The next round (or same if you have a 3rd caster) cast dimensional lock on the area. And then the mage readys disintigrate as a counter to counter a silenced disintigrate on the force cage in the event that the dragon has the silent spell feet.

You are now free to sit back and papper the dragon with blow em up and missile fire to your hearts content, you can even summon monsters in witht he dragon to help beat it up.
As it happens this is a pretty foolproof tactic for anything less that 20*20 in size. IIRC Dragons are colossal-long and therefore 20-40. Not being colossal can have its drawback

If you throw this at an unprepared party its going to be a mess... but ten again for an unprepared party its more like CR 21

My 2c
Majere

 

[Derren]

Resist Energy: Acid Resistance 30. Combined with an Energy Substituted Fire Shield and a perfect damage roll with a failed save means a measly six points of damage. Many L18 arcane casters will have Energy Substitution, if not it might cost a few extra bucks to get these on scroll, but it can be done.

Buy a bunch of scrolls of Neutralize Poison, cast one per character before the fight. 70 minutes of poison immunity for 1000gp a pop.


Don't affect it directly. Buff the other members, keep them alive, haste them, block it with walls of force, summon elder elementals to bash it or grapple it, etc.

All this statments don't take into account that the dragon have a higher caster level than the party, so its pretty easy for it to dispell the buffs the party has.

 

[UltimaGabe]

First round the celric readys to cast silence 5' infront of the dragon when the mage casts force cage. The Wizard force cages it (barred version 20*20) with no save and no SR and the cleric then silences the dragon. The next round (or same if you have a 3rd caster) cast dimensional lock on the area. And then the mage readys disintigrate as a counter to counter a silenced disintigrate on the force cage in the event that the dragon has the silent spell feet.

You are now free to sit back and papper the dragon with blow em up and missile fire to your hearts content, you can even summon monsters in witht he dragon to help beat it up.
As it happens this is a pretty foolproof tactic for anything less that 20*20 in size. IIRC Dragons are colossal-long and therefore 20-40. Not being colossal can have its drawback

By this point, what dragon (especially one who's a 21st-level Sorcerer) wouldn't have Silent Spell? As soon as the Force Cage and Silence were up, he could just Dimension Door out, FAR before you had a chance to Dimensionally lock him. Keep in mind, he's gonna have FAR more spells than your party's Wizard.

 

[Derren]

Also the forcecage blocks the LoE so the wizard can't counterspell the dragons spells.

 

[Scion]

Especially since he has something like 13 feats and 390k gp at least

not to mention that silence spell is horribly overpowered as written...lol

 

[Scion]

Also the forcecage blocks the LoE so the wizard can't counterspell the dragons spells.

I dont think that is true about the barred version, am I wrong?