D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Micah Sweet]

One source, that DEFCON1's example is pretty much drawn from, is the 4e DMG - page 105.

So... not really a press release for that one.

Yeah, hard to argue that. They're as blatant as they can be. The one thing I most appreciated about 4e (when I ended up disliking so much else about it) is that their design parameters were clear as crystal.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You really don't. If the DM wants to impose that style, the process does involve omission from the campaign. But if the players want to embrace the resource management-heavy options, they can by making the choices to do so and not adding LTH to their spellbooks, by playing races without darkvision, etc.
Basically, the same things they were doing to embrace the style in 1e.

The vast majority of players IME aren't going to make those choices unless the DM pushes them to do so.

 

[payn]

The vast majority of players IME aren't going to make those choices unless the DM pushes them to do so.

The "vast majority"? Whats that based on?

 

[tetrasodium]

The vast majority of players IME aren't going to make those choices unless the DM pushes them to do so.

Even if the GM tries pushing them to the rules & abilities they have in 5e are so tuned to obliviating those things that the players won't feel an actual need until the GM's push is more like a speeding train than a mere push

 

[Micah Sweet]

The "vast majority"? Whats that based on?

It's based on the "IME" you quoted.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Even if the GM tries pushing them to the rules & abilities they have in 5e are so tuned to obliviating those things that the players won't feel an actual need until the GM's push is more like a speeding train than a mere push

True. I was trying to be nice about it, but yeah.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The vast majority of players IME aren't going to make those choices unless the DM pushes them to do so.

Assuming that's true, that would arguably say something about what the "vast majority" of players enjoy (and what they don't).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Assuming that's true, that would arguably say something about what the "vast majority" of players enjoy (and what they don't).

Absolutely, and I never doubted that. I just don't happen to be in that vast majority, and don't happen to like what they like. And because they ARE the vast majority, there's no escaping it without becoming a gaming recluse.

 

[Bill Zebub]

At what point in Fellowship did the party not being able to see very far with their light sources, or being able to eat or not actually play into their traversal of the Mines? (I'm presuming movie here, as I do not know the books well enough to know the changes.) As far as I can remember... neither of those things came up. The group had torches and light sources that allowed them to see, and we never saw the actually three days of their traversal of them eating, sleeping or whatever.

Instead, it went from story beat to story beat-- getting into the Mines, noticing they were being followed by Gollum, the "skill challenge" of Gandalf deciding which path to take, finding the tomb, the fight within the tomb, the run and jump across the collapsing staircase, the awakening of the Balrog, and the stand-off at the bridge and them running away as Gandalf sacrifices himself.

Now if you wanted to add Darkness and a lack of food into the story... the DM would just need to set up rules within the Mines where Darkvision and Goodberry just don't work. That's completed doable. Now yes, some DMs and players might very well call that "cheating" because the DM is inventing a magic or a lack of magic for this encounter site that "the game rules" don't have in any of the books... but that's why this is 5E and not AD&D. in 5E the DM can just say this encounter site has been so overcome with infernal magic from digging down the the Balrog that any Goodberries produced come up rotten, and the entire Mine is overcome with essentially a Darkness magic that requires magical light sources to illuminate (like Gandalf's staff.)

We do this... and now both of these are part of THIS Story. This one time. Because it is different and original for the party than what they are used to. And that makes it more compelling (to a certain segment of the gaming populace) than having to deal with darkness and food every single in-game day. Because at that point, it's not a Story, it's just a Standard Operating Procedure that every party comes up with when find ways to deal with the exact same issues over and over and over again.

Food and water didn't factor into Moria*, but light definitely did. Remembering that this is a story, not an RPG, the darkness was the most prominent theme of the entire time from the west gate to the bridge. In a story that can be, and can only be, evoked through narration alone. But in an RPG narration needs mechanics to back it up. To actually make the darkness scary in an RPG, the darkness has to be mechanically scary, an obstacle to be overcome. It just doesn't work to describe the creepy blackness if there is no actual fear of running out of light cantrips and darkvision.

At least, that's my experience. YMMV.

*But food/water very much were part of The Hobbit, in multiple instances. And, as you (or somebody) pointed out, once Frodo and Sam left the company.

 

[Bill Zebub]

A ranger finding food and shelter? Are you going to play that out every single night? Yes, the first time might be interesting... but after like the third time most modern players won't care about it anymore. So it'll be handwaved-- you find food and shelter. Which is no different than the wizard using Tiny Hut. The Standard Operating Procedure during gameplay is no different.

So, the counterarguments keep taking this extreme stance. "Tracking every gram of food". "Describing foraging every single night". Etc.

I don't think that's what anybody is saying is fun.

The goal is...again, like Hobbit/LotR...to make it possible for these things to be challenges at appropriate moments. So, sure, Tiny Hut means you don't have to worry about finding shelter "every night", but so does the DM saying, "It's easy to find shelter in this part of the world."

But then when the DM wants shelter to be part of the story, Tiny Hut makes that very difficult.