D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Then your world is very magical or you do hijinx restricting spell levels or progression or whatever to the games magic. I have always doubled the level of Resurrection myself (I mean since 1e).
I don't mind the idea of the game providing revival effects, but yes; from 3e and forward the casting level of such things has been creeping downward.

And the way I see it, any world that supports Elves and Dragons and Unicorns and Aboleths is pretty damn magical from and by its very nature. :)
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I can see where people interpret that as it has to be magical, but it doesn't say those are the only options. Also, what is magic is up for interpretation.
Not really. It's a true dichotomy. It specifically says it can be removed by greater restoration OR other magic. That leave no option other than those two. There's no non-magic solution for the clay golem or mummy abilities by RAW.
 

Or a quest.

Cannaedoit the 5th level cleric: "I am unable to treat this, but I've heard that in the goblin warrens to the east in the mountains, there is a statue to a god long lost that has the power to cure those who spill their blood upon it's head."

A bad DM makes you wait 11 levels for the paladin. A good or new DM that has made a mistake corrects it. There's nothing wrong with fixing a mistake like that.
I agree except such a mistake shouldn't be possible with basic rules (as you add more and more and 3pp I get how it could come up).
 

That is not correct. Specific beats general and while that applies to most of the undead with that ability, the clay golem specifically says, "The reduction lasts until removed by the greater restoration spell or other magic."

The bolded part is interesting. What other spells cure this? Heal I'm sure. Anything else?
I don't know if this is a NEW rule is what I meant (hence the maybe)
and I assume anything that brings you back from the dead, wish, and basicly equal or higher level spells
 

Voadam

Legend
Not really. It's a true dichotomy. It specifically says it can be removed by greater restoration OR other magic. That leave no option other than those two. There's no non-magic solution for the clay golem or mummy abilities by RAW.
Right, but whether basilisk blood is inherently magical with petrification reversing properties would be a DM call and so could be within RAW as "other magic".

There could be a magical pool that washes away the petrification, a magical staff that restores things to their original forms with a touch, etc.

Magic can take many forms without having to be spells.
 

dave2008

Legend
in my campaigns death is rare but not unheard of. In the last 5 campaigns (2 as DM and 3 as player) we had a total of 6 or 7 deaths depending on how you count revivify. However 1 of those campaigns had 0 deaths.

Edit: and to go back to what you said before about 2-4 months to level...at weekly that is 8-16 games at bi weekly it's 4-8... I can see going 4 sessions but after that I can't imagine not leveling. Sometimes at low level (3-5) we level every week.
We play 1-2 times per month. Every once in a while 3x. And just to be clear, we don't us XP. More of a milestone type of leveling.
 

dave2008

Legend
You mentioned that you had all the same characters for a very long campaign. I wondered if you had PC death allowed in that campaign, as a lack of it might be a factor in the length.
Sure, but isn't that always the case for any long campaign? If the PCs are dead, you don't really have a campaign do you? That is why I thought it was odd. By the very nature of the campaign being long that means the PCs have survived (our been brought back from the dead).

Anyway, as I said: yes, we can have character deaths.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right, but whether basilisk blood is inherently magical with petrification reversing properties would be a DM call and so could be within RAW as "other magic".

There could be a magical pool that washes away the petrification, a magical staff that restores things to their original forms with a touch, etc.

Magic can take many forms without having to be spells.
For sure. I wasn't saying that there couldn't be a myriad of magical ways to do it. My issue was with Dave's statement that it's an "interpretation" that the cures have to be magical. It's not. The wording leaves open no RAW possibility other than magic.
 

dave2008

Legend
Not really. It's a true dichotomy. It specifically says it can be removed by greater restoration OR other magic. That leave no option other than those two. There's no non-magic solution for the clay golem or mummy abilities by RAW.
I disagree. I assume you are linguistically correct, but the rules in the stat block are not all inclusive nor hard requirements. For example, text in the statblock for the basilisk, clay golem, and mummy is all the same. However, the lore of the basilisk specifically provides another option:

Some alchemists are said to know how to process the basilisk’s gullet and the fluids contained within. Properly handled, the gullet produces an oil that can return petrified creatures to flesh and life.

The lore of the basilisk tells you there are options outside the statblock. It is telling you it is OK to have a solution other than the statblock. IMO, that applies to all statblocks and lore.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I disagree. I assume you are linguistically correct, but the rules in the stat block are not all inclusive nor hard requirements. For example, text in the statblock for the basilisk, clay golem, and mummy is all the same. However, the lore of the basilisk specifically provides another option:

Some alchemists are said to know how to process the basilisk’s gullet and the fluids contained within. Properly handled, the gullet produces an oil that can return petrified creatures to flesh and life.

The lore of the basilisk tells you there are options outside the statblock. It is telling you it is OK to have a solution other than the statblock. IMO, that applies to all statblocks and lore.
That would be a magical oil, though. Alchemy is how you make magical potions and oils. That's not an indication of non-magical means being present. The language does not allow for mundane cures. You can of course house rule those in, but by default the cures have to be magical.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
Sure, but isn't that always the case for any long campaign? If the PCs are dead, you don't really have a campaign do you? That is why I thought it was odd. By the very nature of the campaign being long that means the PCs have survived (our been brought back from the dead).

Anyway, as I said: yes, we can have character deaths.
Sometimes PCs die and are replaced. The campaign carries on. Now, if you lose all the originals it can get problematic, but I see no reason to end a campaign because Bob's cleric was eaten by a giant frog.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Sure, but isn't that always the case for any long campaign? If the PCs are dead, you don't really have a campaign do you?
Sure you do, as long as the party continues as a recognizable unit; even though the characters that make up said party might frequently change.

At the start of my current campaign there was only one character who made it through the first adventure; due to bad luck, sometimes bad play, and sheer gonzo-ness the rest each turned over at least twice - though never more than half the party at a time. That survivor didn't make it through the next adventure. The party, though, did; and the campaign continued.
That is why I thought it was odd. By the very nature of the campaign being long that means the PCs have survived (our been brought back from the dead).
To me those things aren't necessarily the same. :)
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
That would be a magical oil, though. Alchemy is how you make magical potions and oils. That's not an indication of non-magical means being present. The language does not allow for mundane cures. You can of course house rule those in, but by default the cures have to be magical.
Ah, the glory and magic of stirring naturally occurring things.

Alchemy really should be where the line is drawn between 'magical' and 'fantastic'.
 

dave2008

Legend
That would be a magical oil, though. Alchemy is how you make magical potions and oils. That's not an indication of non-magical means being present. The language does not allow for mundane cures. You can of course house rule those in, but by default the cures have to be magical.
Alchemy is not inherently magical. I mean people practiced alchemy in real life. Do you believe they were magical?!

Now in general I agree with you in that magic beast parts a magical and thus magic. However, the real question was not whether or not you needed magic to solve the issue (I think it would be obvious you need magic to reverse petrification), but can you do it without being magical yourself. By allowing alchemy or magical beast parts to do I think the answer is clearly, by RAW, yes.
 

dave2008

Legend
Sometimes PCs die and are replaced. The campaign carries on. Now, if you lose all the originals it can get problematic, but I see no reason to end a campaign because Bob's cleric was eaten by a giant frog.
Yes, I was never suggesting a one off would derail a campaign. Though the way may group plays one death is likely to become a TPK! Regardless, we have had "brothers" take up the mantle of their fallen relative / friend before. It happens.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Alchemy is not inherently magical. I mean people practiced alchemy in real life. Do you believe they were magical?!
The game is not real life. Alchemy in the game is how you make healing potions, magical oils and such.
Now in general I agree with you in that magic beast parts a magical and thus magic. However, the real question was not whether or not you needed magic to solve the issue (I think it would be obvious you need magic to reverse petrification), but can you do it without being magical yourself. By allowing alchemy or magical beast parts to do I think the answer is clearly, by RAW, yes.
Sure. You don't have to be magical yourself, but you do need to be using magic to do it. The oil is a prime example. A battle master with alchemy could make that oil and fix the petrified PC. It's the cure that's required to be magical, not the one behind the cure.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Or a quest.

Cannaedoit the 5th level cleric: "I am unable to treat this, but I've heard that in the goblin warrens to the east in the mountains, there is a statue to a god long lost that has the power to cure those who spill their blood upon it's head."
A Quest is damn cool once at least but eventually I feel it becomes just a ritual then maybe some strange the hero has become "just that badass" and throws the affliction off.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yes, I was never suggesting a one off would derail a campaign. Though the way may group plays one death is likely to become a TPK!
I call it a party death spiral.... I had an idea of a downed character acting like an in absentee warlord proving inspirational flashbacks and similar to his allies.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I don't mind the idea of the game providing revival effects, but yes; from 3e and forward the casting level of such things has been creeping downward.
Thought it was the same level
And the way I see it, any world that supports Elves and Dragons and Unicorns and Aboleths is pretty damn magical from and by its very nature. :)
Yeh D&D being pretty damn magical is fine with me too.
 


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