D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Minigiant]

One of the possible new class I suggested D&D needed was the Noble class.

It's basically the 3e Factotum + 4e Rogue.

The Concept is that what is considered noble is different from culture to culture. So a Noble would choose to an Arcane, Divine, Primal, Sneaky, or Warrior Sign of Nobility. Then they would take an art that chooses the second aspect of their life: Art of the Brawler, Art of the Duelist, Art of the Orator. Art of the Tactician.

Bond would be a Sneak/Brawler and get Expertise, a slower Sneak attack progression, Ki-less Martial Arts and, add his Charisma to AC and damage. Whereas an ex-Thay noble would be an arcane half caster who points out weaknesses from the back. A theocracy's chief organist would casthealing with one hand and hand out Inspiration with the other.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The point of levels is to be doing James Bond things in newer, more exciting, more exotic places, and to revel in how you are no longer threatened by ordinary Russian mafia thugs after you've been to the Moon and infiltrated the ruins of Atlantis.

You can have "do awesome James Bond things" at every level--getting your class fantasy--while still having growth in scale, significance, and power. And you can display that growth by having the player occasionally face their now (comparatively) weak enemies/easily-overcome dangers and flex against them, and by bringing back threats that used to be Way Too Scary that are now manageable.

I do not accept that the point of leveling is to face ever more dangerous-looking opponents with the same skill set. The whole point of getting new abilities (which all well-made classes should receive) is to be able to expand your ability to affect the world, not just the scale of affecting the world.

 

[Minigiant]

My question for he ones who don't adventure or fight is why 3.5 gave them HP and BAB improvements.

I imagine a party of 1st level roughnecks trying to rob the bakery, only to find that the staff includes someone with 10d6 HP and +7/+2 BAB to swing that kitchen gear with, not to mention the scattering of others with more than one level. ("But we checked! He was never even in the militia and never went on adventures!!!")

That was a flaw with how 3e worked.

Skill ranks were capped by level. And Feats only gave you a+2 or +3 bonus. So the only way to get +10 to baking was to give you 7 HD.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This looks like the perfect time to quote Grod's Law!

“Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.”

That "law" doesn't apply if the mechanics aren't actually bad.

 

[Lanefan]

Here's the thing Minigiant doesn't get

Some D&D fans want start with the Earth Base

1. Revert it to Late Medieval-Early Renaissance
2. Remove the Science
3. Remove the Psuedoscience
4. Remove the Diplomacy
5. Remove the War Tactics and Strategems
6. Remove the Athletics and Acrobatics
7. Remove the Gunpowder
8. Add Magic Spellcasting
9. Allow Magic Spellcasting to Replace 2-7
10. Don't allow other forms of Magic other than Magic Items created by Magic Spellcasting

Then complain "There's too much Magic Spellcasting in D&D."

I mean if you remove every non-weapon non-armor "advancement" since 5000 BCE and inject Unrestricted Spellcasting, Spellcasting is going to be everywhere.

Of those, the only thing I remove is the gunpowder. Science, pseudoscience, diplomacy, war strategy/tactics, and athletics are all present in my game. Which means magic spellcasting largely becomes an overlay on top of all what's already there, forcing me to keep a close eye on it lest it get completely out of hand.

 

[Lanefan]

Not appreciably, no. I mean, do wheels not work? Levers? Pulleys? What’s the boundary between “technology” and the simple application of physics?

What's the border?

I'd say electricity. Before that, steam power.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I do not accept that the point of leveling is to face ever more dangerous-looking opponents with the same skill set. The whole point of getting new abilities (which all well-made classes should receive) is to be able to expand your ability to affect the world, not just the scale of affecting the world.

On the one hand..I hear you..on the other..
Are you just gonna say things like this with the fighter is standing right there?? Look how hard they had to work to get that 4th attack and all those hit points.

 

[Lanefan]

Does almost everyone usually take the real world science as default unless it seems to break perceived real world time lines?

And even if it does, to some extent; yes.

I say this because I've yet to see a setting that didn't try to combine cultures from various real-world eras into existing at the same time; a combination that IMO is a good thing, in that it provides variety and options for all.

I assume players don't ask if metal armor floats or sinks before pushing a guard into the water, if salting a field ruins them if they want to suggest a particularly vicious threat to a farmer, if diamond can cut glass, if green wood smokes compared to dry wood, if various creepy crawlies eat dead bodies, etc...

Correct - players assume things work as they do on Earth until-unless informed when and if (and how) they do not.

Do they usually not assume if it seems to go against the genre?

Would they ask about gun powder? Aqua regia? Petroleum? Helium?

Gunpowder, yes. The others, not yet (though I have answers at the ready for the latter two of those).

 

[Lanefan]

I know Bill had bowed out, but this is a friendly PSA that 'Magical' is not the same as 'Fantastic'.

A giant is a fantastic creature, but they are not magic.

A dragon's ability to fly is fantastic. It's breath weapon is fantastic. The chain lightning it dropped on you is magic.

In my view both giants and dragons need there to be magic in the setting in order to exist at all, as does anything else 'fantastic'.

The lack of magic is why those things don't exist here on Earth.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Of those, the only thing I remove is the gunpowder. Science, pseudoscience, diplomacy, war strategy/tactics, and athletics are all present in my game. Which means magic spellcasting largely becomes an overlay on top of all what's already there, forcing me to keep a close eye on it lest it get completely out of hand.

Same, although I keep gunpowder too.