D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I don't remember any explicit goals about the equivalence of the ritual magic system and the skill system. Do you have a reference?
In the DMG2 The benefit for a ritual that worked for a skill challenge (whether it worked was situational not a die roll) was one success exactly like if you made a successful skill check (or rarely at the most 2 successes and in the RC a skill was allowed to have 2 success if it was a crit. A successful skill use was def supposed to be equivalent to a ritual which helped... unless something special made either one more valuable (ie 2 success).

Note some declared we didnt need Martial Practices because by allowing benefit on those rolls for spending a HS was very close to the value and method of a skill use in a challenge already. I am not as certain that is the case but I can see their point.

Martial practices reinforced the idea that skills alone could reach ritual value as well. (and predate the DMG2 if I recall)

With skill powers reinforcing the same for spells a bit later.

I called it a goal .. .but technically its a guideline.
 
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Voadam

Legend
Just curious: are there monsters in later books (aside from Volo's) that try and pull this kind of thing? Because I feel like this vagueness that can screw the PCs but could maybe possibly if you squint provide a solution like in modern installments is part and parcel of the early push to appeal to old school sensibilities without actually pulling the trigger directly.
Do you mean in Mordenkainen's? There have only been the MM, Volo's, Mordenkainen's and the compilation and update Monsters of the Multiverse which is just Volo's and Mordenkainen's redone. 5e has not had a ton of official monster books. So excluding the MM and Volo's cuts out the majority of official monster lore (roughly two thirds).
 

dave2008

Legend
And everyone survived to high level? They are special!
We come from 1e, so my players tend to be cautious. They are not very tactical, but they are strategic and tend to only take on things they no they can and/or with careful planning. Then are also the rare group that will run if needed.
 
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Micah Sweet

Legend
We come from 1e, so my players tend to be cautious. They are not very tactical, but they are strategic and tend to only take on things they no they can do and/or with careful planning. Then are also the rare group that will run if needed.
I'm impressed. Wish my players were more like that.
 

dave2008

Legend
I was suggesting that characters that can't die, and are therefore contiguous, might lead to longer campaigns. You said you had the same PCs for the entire long campaign.
OK, it feels like you are jumping in mid stream and missing the boat. FrozenNorth discussed not having enough Martial options because you would get bored with only 2-3 choices. My response was about 2-3 choices doesn't matter when you on every use 1. Then GMforPowergamers mentioned he runs one campaign every 12-16 months and that they get to know their characters in about 1 month (2+/- levels). At no point was character death ever being discussed.
 

dave2008

Legend
I'm impressed. Wish my players were more like that.
Well I pretty much only game with my friends that I've played with since highschool. Good things and bad things about that. The only other group I've played with is when I taught the game to my children and their friends.

PS I have played some adventures with other people, but not full campaigns
 


OK, it feels like you are jumping in mid stream and missing the boat. FrozenNorth discussed not having enough Martial options because you would get bored with only 2-3 choices. My response was about 2-3 choices doesn't matter when you on every use 1. Then GMforPowergamers mentioned he runs one campaign every 12-16 months and that they get to know their characters in about 1 month (2+/- levels). At no point was character death ever being discussed.
in my campaigns death is rare but not unheard of. In the last 5 campaigns (2 as DM and 3 as player) we had a total of 6 or 7 deaths depending on how you count revivify. However 1 of those campaigns had 0 deaths.

Edit: and to go back to what you said before about 2-4 months to level...at weekly that is 8-16 games at bi weekly it's 4-8... I can see going 4 sessions but after that I can't imagine not leveling. Sometimes at low level (3-5) we level every week.
 

Voadam

Legend
A biggy the ritual magic and a skill check were explicitly supposed to be capable of accomplishing the same amount of story impact.

In the DMG2 The benefit for a ritual that worked for a skill challenge (whether it worked was situational not a die roll) was one success exactly like if you made a successful skill check (or rarely at the most 2 successes and in the RC a skill was allowed to have 2 success if it was a crit. A successful skill use was def supposed to be equivalent to a ritual which helped... unless something special made either one more valuable (ie 2 success).
I see.

I would not extrapolate from applicable skills and rituals both being one success on a skill challenge to them being explicitly supposed to accomplish the same amount of story impact outside of a skill challenge context.
Note some declared we didnt need Martial Practices because by allowing benefit on those rolls for spending a HS was very close to the value and method of a skill use in a challenge already. I am not as certain that is the case but I can see their point.

Martial practices reinforced the idea that skills alone could reach ritual value as well. (and predate the DMG2 if I recall)
Martial practices aren't skills alone are they? I thought they were a feat based system similar to how you could use a feat to pick up ritual magic which uses skill rolls to succeed at the magical effect. It was a later 4e thing that I never saw much of.
With skill powers reinforcing the same for spells a bit later.

I called it a goal .. .but technically its a guideline.
Skill powers are feats leveraging skills to do things that the skill descriptions alone don't say they do, right? So their power level is designed to be roughly equivalent to that of other feats of their tier whether magical or nonmagical.

Or am I misremembering? Are they utility powers open to anyone with the trained skill and so designed to be roughly equal power to equal level utility powers, whether magical or not?
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
OK, it feels like you are jumping in mid stream and missing the boat. FrozenNorth discussed not having enough Martial options because you would get bored with only 2-3 choices. My response was about 2-3 choices doesn't matter when you on every use 1. Then GMforPowergamers mentioned he runs one campaign every 12-16 months and that they get to know their characters in about 1 month (2+/- levels). At no point was character death ever being discussed.
You mentioned that you had all the same characters for a very long campaign. I wondered if you had PC death allowed in that campaign, as a lack of it might be a factor in the length.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
and it's easy to say "thats a bad DM" but it's a mistake a good one or new one can make easy.

"this looks cool" followed by "oh that's in the CR range" mixed with already telling everyone the highest level cleric in the 3 towns they have been to is 5th level... and the 6th level party WOULD be more powerful but they don't have a cleric, they have a bard a fighter a rogue and a wizard... now the melee combatants have what might as well be a foreever debuff unless the DM brings in a deus ex machina high level cleric
Or a quest.

Cannaedoit the 5th level cleric: "I am unable to treat this, but I've heard that in the goblin warrens to the east in the mountains, there is a statue to a god long lost that has the power to cure those who spill their blood upon it's head."

A bad DM makes you wait 11 levels for the paladin. A good or new DM that has made a mistake corrects it. There's nothing wrong with fixing a mistake like that.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
this MAY be a mut issue.


if I just read that right the CLay Golem damage will get gone with a nights rest...

I REALLY want something in between. Not "I need a 9th+ level caster" and not "I just sleep/walk it off"
That is not correct. Specific beats general and while that applies to most of the undead with that ability, the clay golem specifically says, "The reduction lasts until removed by the greater restoration spell or other magic."

The bolded part is interesting. What other spells cure this? Heal I'm sure. Anything else?
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
in my campaigns death is rare but not unheard of. In the last 5 campaigns (2 as DM and 3 as player) we had a total of 6 or 7 deaths depending on how you count revivify. However 1 of those campaigns had 0 deaths.

Edit: and to go back to what you said before about 2-4 months to level...at weekly that is 8-16 games at bi weekly it's 4-8... I can see going 4 sessions but after that I can't imagine not leveling. Sometimes at low level (3-5) we level every week.
That's way too fast for me.

As long as my character(s) is(are) slowly chugging along, in weekly play I'm fine with levelling once or twice a year on average. At high levels, someone bumping is big news. :)

Then again, I see campaigns as ten+ year things in which many characters - and maybe even many parties, made up of different combinations of various characters - will come and go. And character death is very much a reason for some of that come-and-go, particularly at low levels.
 



Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Except if one wants the PCs to be more reflective of the world they live in and are a part of, as I do, what then?
Then your world is very magical or you do hijinx restricting spell levels or progression or whatever to the games magic. I have always doubled the level of Resurrection myself (I mean since 1e). I have heard it pointed out what if you didnt have wizards but instead had Eldritch Knights with staves (where you could bond with your staff perhaps and a few other tweaks).
 



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