D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It's always a story. Different personalities will act different ways.
I am going to make a big carnivore right in the middle of the enemy it doesnt have to be tons of them they do not necessarily know its their ally transformed force perception checks and even one of them fails and you now have them attacking it and it does not know they are its ally in fact it has no way to know it should be their ally AND If a lot of different behaviors come into play I would be surprised. (we do not attack it of course because we know its doing our work for us)
No. I mean, how often are you going to be facing an army where you can let a T-rex loose like that?
LOL nope why would it take an army? sheesh ... you don't even have to use a t-rex... its incredibly flexible remember?

AND its so powerful you may not want to use it is a hilarious argument that it isn't over powered its double the value just offensively of Banishment (a level 4 spell) it doesnt just delay the conflict it advances it. Discounting the other uses alone. Even if it just took out another monster of its class and was killed far better than banishment (those are attacks the party isnt receiving from 2 enemies and one enemy down or even just depleted by the t-rex).

A weak encounter you don't want to use it on somehow means its not overpowered I really do not get you.

Oh and its a concentration spell if the polymorphed enemy is a pain drop your concentration.
 
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Irlo

Hero
I'm not running the spell the way that I do in order to limit things. I'm running it that way because that's the way it is written. The spell causes you to become the beast in all ways EXCEPT alignment and personality. That's it. To add in memory is to house rule in another exception.
I'm a proponent of the idea that spells do what the spell descriptions say they do and no more. Polymorph describes the spell effects. Since the spell description doesn't indiate it erases memory, I suggest that it does not erase memory. (Ruling that it does erase memory adds effects to the spell that aren't in the text.) The creature can't speak, but there's nothing that indicates it loses the ability to understand speach or even writing.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I'm a proponent of the idea that spells do what the spell descriptions say they do and no more. Polymorph describes the spell effects. Since the spell description doesn't indiate it erases memory, I suggest that it does not erase memory.
We are assuming it is transforming a person and making changes on that root... Maxperson is assuming (or saying the spell says) we start with a tabla raza base and adding on the personality and alignment of the subject... (since those were called out explicitly)
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I am going to make a big carnivore right in the middle of the enemy it doesnt have to be tons of them they do not necessarily know its their ally transformed force perception checks and even one of them fails and you now have them attacking it and it does not know they are its ally in fact it has no way to know it should be their ally AND If a lot of different behaviors come into play I would be surprised. (we do not attack it of course because we know its doing our work for us)
And what do you do when they all run 60 feet and stand next to you? You're likely to get bit in the rear by the t-rex you just made. It's not going to differentiate between the small two legs that ran to you and you. You're all food.

Making an enemy in a small group that's right next to you into a t-rex is dumb. Sneaking into the middle of an army and doing it is juicy stuff.
Oh and its a concentration spell if the polymorphed enemy is a pain drop your concentration.
And they've just gotten you to waste a 4th level slot. ;)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm a proponent of the idea that spells do what the spell descriptions say they do and no more. Polymorph describes the spell effects. Since the spell description doesn't indiate it erases memory, I suggest that it does not erase memory.
Exactly what it says it does is make you into a copy of a beast, EXCEPT for alignment and personality. There is nothing written about memory being a third exception, so it isn't.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And what do you do when they all run 60 feet and stand next to you?
they are mighty fast? the t-rex is 50 feet move speed ... but regardless I am at 90 feet as I cast the spell (and moved why stand close? does that make sense?). If we have initiative another caster (because why play a martial?) can also put out all kinds of things like a web spell into play one of my faves because cheap battlefield control (which creates difficult terrain even after you save)

Heck even just that stubborn cbe archer can use a trip attack at range to give the t-rex a reason to stop for lunch. (or use a menacing attack similarly to stop an enemy closing to accomplish a similar thing).

If you are using an enemy to attack an enemy you may have to arrange things for it to work well (I will even grant that makes for fun combat) there you go :) , the enemy might be triggering an opportunity attack from the beast when trying to close towards us ie leaving its threat of the Beast (t-rex or not) might have initiative or whatever

Letting concentration drop is just a last resort when other things failed.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
they are mighty fast? the t-rex is 50 feet move speed ... but regardless I am at 90 feet as I cast the spell (and moved why stand close? does that make sense?). If we have initiative another caster because why play a martial can also put out all kinds of things like a web spell because cheap battlefield control (which creates difficult terrain even after you save)

Heck even just that meager archer can use a trip at range to give the t-rex a reason to stop for lunch. (or use a menacing attack with it to stop an enemy closing to accomplish a similar thing)

Letting concentration drop is just a last resort.
And they moved, dashed and misty stepped to you as a bonus action. I mean, if you're lobbing polymorphs, they have abilities too. ;)

The point stands. It's not smart to create a t-rex that close to the party.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And they moved, dashed and misty stepped to you as a bonus action.
lol yeh they are all elf elites and everyone of them won initiative? or maybe not. Or I misty stepped as a bonus action too and they are still at 30 foot range..
I started to say well if we are going humanoids maybe Drow? a Shadowblade is going drip with mobility with a 60 foot teleport though he is CR 11. (but this all highly depends on the specific enemies and initiatives rolled etc so we really cannot be sure about the results)

Depending on the enemies at this level they would not necessarily even know the value of running next to the players. Some will think hey I can definitely take this and be right they might.

Some of that assumes that all moves happen before the archer got off his prone or menacing attack or before the web spell drops in place potentially slowing many of them ... and so on, but regardless it does make a somewhat interesting fight (having an unpredictable element involved) with all participating and that is a point in your favor. If these things weren't all useful on their own and only helped keep the t-rex on the enemy that would be different because we could declare them part of the sunk cost of the polymorph (but slowing enemies and getting back to better range and so on are useful anyway)
 
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Irlo

Hero
Exactly what it says it does is make you into a copy of a beast, EXCEPT for alignment and personality. There is nothing written about memory being a third exception, so it isn't.
That's not exactly what the spell says. You're adding bits to support your point.

Nothing in the spell description suggests that memory is lost, so it isn't.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That's not exactly what the spell says. You're adding bits to support your point.

Nothing in the spell description suggests that memory is lost, so it isn't.
Since you guys are going there...
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
. It retains its alignment and personality does not necessarily say does not retain memories too particularly those emotional ones related to alignment and personality. It does not say you become new beast without any experience etc. The text indicating the target assumes the hit points of its new form is well replacing a specific feature that was either not covered by any of the previous text or is something they thought needed confirmation. "Its actions are limited by the nature of the new form" (that is physical nature to me specifying a form limit not bestial mental nature). Yeh I still do not get amnesia out of it. The limit based on hands and speech seems to leave a lot of actions open can I make an athletics check using my beastly strength but the proficiency I have (or does it not apply to the new form ... subject not mentioned).

Hmmm can I use my mountain lions wisdom to do some healing checks to analyse an allies injuries and get my proficiency at healing while doing so seems likely based on the text but not if we are assuming amnesia.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's not exactly what the spell says. You're adding bits to support your point.

Nothing in the spell description suggests that memory is lost, so it isn't.
"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

There it is in plain writing. It retains alignment and personality. Nothing else is retained. Anything else that you allow to remain is a house rule.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It retains its alignment and personality does not necessarily say does not retain memories too particularly those emotional ones related to alignment and personality.
It MUST say that memories are retained, or they are not. The spell lists what you get to keep and everything else by RAW is gone. That's what it means when it lists out the exceptions that stick around.
 

Irlo

Hero
"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

There it is in plain writing. It retains alignment and personality. Nothing else is retained. Anything else that you allow to remain is a house rule.
Memory is not a game statistic. Therefore memory is not replaced.

The spell does what it says it does and no more. You added: "Nothing else is retained."

Memory is not on the list of things that druids retain when they wild shape. As a DM, do you rule that druids lose their memories in beast form?

Anyway, I've had my say. Good night!
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Memory is not a game statistic. Therefore memory is not replaced.
Personality is not a game statistic, either, yet it goes out of its way to say it is retained.
The spell does what it says it does and no more. You added: "Nothing else is retained."
I didn't add it. It's said by the language used. If you say these two things are retained, it means that those are the only two things retained.

If I tell you that I'm stranding you on a desert island and you may retain your spear gun and flashlight, do you really think that means that since I didn't say anything else that you get to keep everything else you have? Or do you think it means that you are only getting to keep those two things?
Anyway, I've had my say. Good night!
Night! :)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Nothing else is retained. Anything else that you allow to remain is a house rule.
It retains any action not limited by speech or hands though and does that include the application of proficiencies? is nowehere mentioned. I think personality and alignment without the foundational memories is meaningless (but its magic and logic is kind of an out the window thing LOL). So can I still read (seems like an action not limited by form)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It retains any action not limited by speech or hands though and does that include the application of proficiencies?
That's false. "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form..." Nature of the form, not the form itself.

What is the nature of a t-rex?
I think personality and alignment without the foundational memories is meaningless (but its magic and logic is kind of an out the window thing LOL). So can I still read (seems like an action not limited by form)
People with amnesia retain their personalities. Memories are not necessary for that.

A dog cannot read and cannot be taught to read. It's nature would not allow you to read if polymorphed into one.
 

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