D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Oh I do not know and neither do you, the character does not lose memories of those friends the spell does not say so .... you are reaching with a hostile agenda, nothing more.
Nope. It specifically(beating general) only says they retain alignment and personality. You are adding in memory when it does not say it is retained.
The personality of the character does not include attacking friends then neither will the beast.
Correct. Alignment and personality are the key factors here. A CN angry and violent barbarian PC would attack his "friends." A LG peace loving cleric would not, nor the enemy for that matter.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't know... are they pack hunters? do they mate for life? do they feel kinship or are they even possible to be domesticated???

I will relent to house cats being jerks that attack allies... other animals not so much.
Cats, not house cats. A trained tiger friend attacked Roy of Sigfried and Roy, mauling him terribly. Other animals sometimes do as well.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
I don't know... are they pack hunters?
Most recent findings suggest most tyrannosaurids were indeed pack hunters and took care of their young. Most apes absolutely do.

So even the BS excuse trying to make the PC go ballistic and make the spell an active determent to cast fails on the two most popular choices.

Most animals just aren't big, dumb movie monsters that exist to kill humans.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And it is specific cat behavior... ie personality not some abstracted NATURE that says DM gets to roleplay the character or force things that are contrary to the characters personality AND alignment.
Literally nobody here has argued in favor of that being true. Personality and alignment are not memory, though. So no, the LG peace loving cleric wouldn't attack anything, but he's going to be limited by the nature(not form) of the beast EXCEPT for alignment and personality, the ONLY two exceptions specifically written. Memory is not a written exception.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Most recent findings suggest most tyrannosaurids were indeed pack hunters and took care of their young.
Based on the finding of a family that died together. Many birds(modern dinosaurs) stay together until the young are ready to go out on their own and then go their separate ways.

Scientists saying that the recent findings "suggest" that they were pack hunters just because they found a family of extinct birds that died together is highly optimistic.
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
Based on the finding of a family that died together. Many birds(modern dinosaurs) stay together until the young are ready to go out on their own and then go their separate ways.

Scientists saying that the recent findings "suggest" that they were pack hunters just because they found a family of extinct birds that died together is highly optimistic.
Nope. Group of smaller adult tyrannosaurids found in Argentina.

You're thinking of that river full of various species of tyrannosaurids in Canada.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Nope. Group of smaller adult tyrannosaurids found in Argentina.

You're thinking of that river full of various species of tyrannosaurids in Canada.
No. The article I read was about a site in Utah.

The Canada location, according to the 2021 article I read, is a hypothesized location of a T-rex mass death based on three sets T rex tracks a distance apart that go in the same direction.

The Argentine group were not tyranosaurs. They also MAY have been group hunters. Or they may just breed close together and this group died during mating season. No one knows.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Like a lot of things that people seem set on bending over backward to make useless because they think they're too powerful... why not just ban Polymorph or the use of it on allies?

It can't be a genre concern because the berserker mode isn't archetypical to this type of shapeshifting
The idea that a target is amnesiac is a great tool turn the enemy into a monster and let them ravage their allies another offensive head on the battlefield .... they made the power useful in a different way,ie another not actually a limit.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The idea that a target is amnesiac is a great tool turn the enemy into a monster and let them ravage their allies another offensive head on the battlefield .... they made the power useful in a different way,ie another not actually a limit.
I already brought that up. It would work great as long as you get someone who's a mean SOB and not someone forced to be there and really doesn't want to hurt people.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Like a lot of things that people seem set on bending over backward to make useless because they think they're too powerful... why not just ban Polymorph or the use of it on allies?
That's a plan B, I suppose; but in the interests of keeping it available for opponents (and less-than-decent PCs) to use on their buddies against their will I'd suggest instead that Polymorph still be castable on anyone but carry a severe risk of the poly becoming permanent including loss of memory, personality, etc. at the point where the spell would otherwise end - say, a DC-15 save to return to normal where only your Charisma stat bonus can help you, nothing else. When cast on self, this save might be reduced to DC-5 or even eliminated.

With this, turning your friend into a T-Rex could easily leave you with a T-Rex - who has no idea who you are and now thinks only as a T-Rex - to deal with once the spell ends. But in the meantime while the spell is running you've got a T-Rex on your side. Or, you're trapped underground somehow and the only way out is to turn someone into an Umber Hulk for its burrowing capability - sure it'll dig you out but might end up stuck that way afterwards and have forgotten everything about you. High risk, high reward. Love it.

And when casting it on a foe, who cares if it becomes permanent? :)
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
and not someone forced to be there and really doesn't want to hurt people.
Sounds like a rare exception and an interesting story line to me... but in general it enhances the spell for combat purposes not really limits much and actually very handy to simultaneously subtract an attacker from the enemy camp and simultaneously add one for your benefit (if not exactly on your side)

The first person wanting this definitely wanted to nerf the spell. Not give the players double kickapoo joy juice...

The non-combat uses of the spell will take a hit (such as turning people into eagles for access to a hard to reach location and similar ie they bloody do not know the plan among other issues the druid will have to talk them into it or some such so its more of a flavor limit I think).
 

Hussar

Legend
Yeh that lawful good character is now homicidal against friends but still somehow lawful good with the exact same personality because the DM who does not really know much about the beast decides that is their nature .. SHEESH this definitely screams the DM is a "not fit for gramma" (if you don't like the word adversarial there are worse)
Oh come on. No one is advocating this. The most I said was a saving throw to act for a single round against the party. As in you might take a single attack, make another saving throw, then stop. No one is saying that the PC automatically turns against the party every time and must always try to kill the other PC's. Talky about adversarial interpretations. Sheesh.

After all, it would also be pretty plausible that the polymorphed beast runs away as well. Most animals don't fight to the death. Taking a fair chunk of damage will usually result in an animal leaving. But, apparently it's entirely plausible to you that the polymorphed beast will ALWAYS fight to the death. Since we're talking about what's believable and all that.

But, in any case, wouldn't the simplest fix be to limit polymorph the same way that druids are? Your max CR=caster level/3. Poof, all these problems go away.

Good grief. Even the slightest whiff of actually having to role play something and people react like you're asking them to eat puppies.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sounds like a rare exception and an interesting story line to me... but in general it enhances the spell for combat purposes not really limits much and actually very handy to simultaneously subtract an attacker from the enemy camp and simultaneously add one for your benefit (if not exactly on your side)
I'm not running the spell the way that I do in order to limit things. I'm running it that way because that's the way it is written. The spell causes you to become the beast in all ways EXCEPT alignment and personality. That's it. To add in memory is to house rule in another exception.

I agree that running it the way that I do makes for an interesting story, and it can enhance some combats. That's okay.
The first person wanting this definitely wanted to nerf the spell. Not give the players double kickapoo joy juice...
I don't know who that was.
The non-combat uses of the spell will take a hit (such as turning people into eagles for access to a hard to reach location and similar ie they bloody do not know the plan among other issues the druid will have to talk them into it or some such so its more of a flavor limit I think).
It's a 4th level spell. Not god. It's not supposed to be able to do all the different things that people want it to do. As I said upthread, if people want to retain their intelligence, I wouldn't mind it being a 6th level spell and allowing that. It would absolutely make it a MUCH more useful spell, and replace the druid with his wildshape, too!
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Oh come on. No one is advocating this. The most I said was a saving throw to act for a single round against the party. As in you might take a single attack, make another saving throw, then stop.
You are assuming I was talking about your saves to act normal idea? I wasn't? The amnesiac t-Rex acting entirely according to its NATURE (seemed the story others were after they even argued a t-Rex would not understand the idea of friends not just that they could not remember they had them and they would be dangerous to their allies just like some cats will scratch a fiend (or a Tiger kill its handler friend), even if they did remember I suppose. It definitely overlapped with personality at first then it somehow became just amnesia. And was intended to be a limit of the spell and then it was not actually a limit. (and makes it more powerful as a war tool)

The amnesiac t-Rex popped in the middle of hostile enemies is likely to get attacked by those enemies or attack them out of confusion (or even the ahem general hostility of the personality you are transforming) and simultaneously remove an enemy and add another attacker against those enemies.

Probably the most powerful use of the spell yet and dependent on the amnesia angle. And much less roleplaying encouraged or required.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The only time it gets some story is when you make an enemy kind of pacifist...
It's always a story. Different personalities will act different ways.
Overpowered for the win right? Almost always seems better than banishment with your amnesia effect
No. I mean, how often are you going to be facing an army where you can let a T-rex loose like that? If it's just a small opposing group, you're might end up hurting your side as well.

It's not overpowered at all.
 

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