D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[MGibster]

Why cant there be a base system with bounded accuracy and another magic item dial up that accounts for the added math and gives tools to both players and GMs to do so? Probably because its more trouble than its worth. 5E is hugely popular so why bother making it work for everyone especially when it would require so much supplement.

I don't believe any game system out there can be all things to all people. Not even GURPS. I think if too much modularity was introduced to D&D it would just end up doing a lot of different things poorly. Better for the game to have a solid vision and plan for how the game is supposed to be played even if it's not really to my preference.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't believe any game system out there can be all things to all people. Not even GURPS. I think if too much modularity was introduced to D&D it would just end up doing a lot of different things poorly. Better for the game to have a solid vision and plan for how the game is supposed to be played even if it's not really to my preference.

That was the idea of 4e. State and deliver a clear vision. Provide a solid, functional core. Test it to make sure it works as intended. Fix it when it doesn't. Outside the intended areas of focus, give clear and effective advice and examples and get out of the way.

I'm not usually one to make arguments of this kind, but...if the influential and vocal minority responded so badly before, what would make that change now?

 

[MichaelSomething]

One of my first 3e games, the DM who had graduated from 2e started the game with us in a desert prison. We had to plan our escape, and the next part was supposed to be a gritty survival game. Little did he realize what my Cleric and our Druid were about to do.

I could farm out Endure Elements to the party and create water. As I leveled, soon I could remove fatigue, and even create food from nothing!

And the DM kind of freaked out about it, griping about the new edition's "power creep", until I pulled out the 2e PHB and showed him that this was nothing new- he'd just never seen it done before, in all the years he'd played.

Of course, there was a good reason for that. I didn't have to prepare nothing but Cure X Wounds spells, since I could turn any spell into healing if need be. Which meant I was free to load up on other interesting spells.

5e makes this even worse, as you can prepare quite a few different spells, and cast them freely.

So it's not that the game has gotten more magical, but that players are more free to actually look at their spell list, and prepare some niche utility spells they might not have back in AD&D.

Now I will grant, some spells have gotten stronger. I'm not sure why Tiny Hut is now a mobile fortress. Back in the day, I'd use Shrink Item to carry around a wooden house when we needed to camp, now all I need is a level 3 spell slot!

I won't defend abuse of Tiny Hut, but when people say that "using a rope trick to get a short rest whenever you want one is deserving of a TPK", that gets an eyebrow raise from me.

When I said magic is balanced on the basis of the PCs not using it 80 percent of the time; I meant it as a pithy joke. I didn't expect it to be so accurate...

 

[Voadam]

So, this post by @James Gasik really hit home and got me thinking about something...


For some reason (I really cannot tell you why!) the last few years I've been playing 5E I've desired a "low-magic" style setting/game. I have been all of keeping it more mundane, heroic but not "superheroic", keeping magic and magical items rare, making the game gritty with easier death and harder recovery.

And I don't know WHY I have felt this way...

I began decades ago with B/X and AD&D and I was perfectly happy up to 3rd edition with flying wizards, teleportation, and similar magic mention in the quote above. I never had any problem with mighty magic weapons and regions of mystical mysteries lost for ages, where strange and unusual were common occurrences.

But, for some unknown reason, in 5E I don't seem to want it anymore, while it is part of the game (as James says...) and has been for years.

So, I am not seeking answers, but if anyone has thoughts or wants to discuss it, please let me know. It would be nice if I could find a reason why...

Sounds like a shift in what you want to focus on in the D&D experience, more the person and what they come up with than interesting combinations and uses of the magical toolkits.

As a player non-magical martials generally have to get creative focusing on what a person can do, while magical characters get good at using their magical stuff to address situations.

From the DM side you can focus on the immediate situation and the human interactions more if you are dealing in low magic, while common high magic with powerful effects can really change things on a big scale in many ways.

 

[Voadam]

My experience of B/X and AD&D as a player and as a DM running campaigns using published modules was that magic items were fairly common, a lot of them were simply adding not special numbers (+1 mace, ring of protection +1, +2 shield) and LFQW was a thing well before 3e. A magic-user/wizard getting a wand with offensive capabilities was not uncommon at some point after the first couple levels which often gave them attack magic options every combat round.

Reading Gygax's stories about running Greyhawk games and his PC play as Mordenkainen seemed to support high magic D&D as regular from the beginning.

The first couple levels were usually very low magic, particularly in 1e where an MU would get random starting spells so they could not even count on a 1/day sleep nuke or B/X where clerics had zero spells at 1st level. But magical options did improve, particularly after looting some dungeons and NPC's gear and gaining some levels.

 

[Voadam]

5e rules also just seem to be more open to a non-magic game* than almost any previous edition; maybe you saw that on some level and it piqued your curiosity?

*One would have to eliminate virtually all but 2 classes, but the resulting mechanics would be interesting on some level. For example, a monster with resistance to non-magical damage becomes quite fearsome.

4e was more open to it with Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord class options covering a lot of fun options and core roles. Add in the DMG2/Dark Sun inherent bonus system and the expected default math could work with no magic items at all.

5e is OK non magically with Fighters and Rogues, and full healing on long rests and HD spending on short rests.

 

[MrMcQ]

I tend to use roleplaying to limit magic. Spellcasters are rare and the general populace are frightened and suspicious of magic, wizards need to keep a low profile. There are no magic schools or universities so the master/apprentice system rules, limiting spellcaster numbers in the world
Also in 2nd ED the DM had more control over the spells casters had access to and there were rules for learning a spell in the first place dependent on Int.
Just my thoughts.

 

[John R Davis]

There is a lot less magic items in 5e.
There is a vast amount of more spell-like magic in 5e. Lots classes cast spells or have very cool stuff that is magic in any other word

So I do think magic had become less special. As well as Spelljammer I am also in a 1st AD&D game. With regards spells it is very different.

As some said above the sense of wonder has gone in 2022 as IRL there is so much wonderment everywhere it has become mundane, compared to the early 80s when I started.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

4e was more open to it with Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord class options covering a lot of fun options and core roles. Add in the DMG2/Dark Sun inherent bonus system and the expected default math could work with no magic items at all.

Indeed. The Monk and Barbarian also provide plausibly non-magical options (depending on subclass and powers), so if you allow for the controller-style Ranger from Essentials, you can have a full five- or even six-person party without needing anyone who has explicitly magical abilities.

Martial Practices and some mildly-curated Skill Powers would allow these martial characters to still do a lot of creative stuff that doesn't involve magic. Any "actual" magic can then be handled through ritual scrolls or other highly-limited sources.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Does it make you enjoy 5e more to not only constantly disparage and complain about it, but to always assume the most cynical of reasons for WotC to make the design decisions they do (which you then pass off as established fact)?

I guess if it enriches your experience, go for it.

Mod Note:

You‘re making it personal, and in a pretty antagonistic way. Stop.