D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[DEFCON 1]

LTH? A ranger relying on their woodcraft to select a safe spot to sleep and camouflaging it serves the story. The wizard not even spending a spell slot to pop up an indestructible tent does not.

Darkvision? The dwarf accustomed to dark passageways, snorting at his colleagues whose eyes do not adjust as his do, that’s a pretty good story. So is having the dwarf go first instead of the rogue because his darkvision makes him more likely to see traps. A party where everyone except the dragonborn can see in the dark is just not as interesting.

A wizard who focuses on abjuration spells and is a powerhouse with those, but weak with other magic makes a great story. Most of the wizards I see pull their spells from the most recent “10 most overpowered spells” video.

On more story-oriented games, high magic both tends to be a story breaker and distort how NPCs react. The king being assassinated is not a big deal when the court cleric can just cast an auto-success Revivify!

But those aren't Stories. Those are just different Standard Operating Procedures.

A ranger finding food and shelter? Are you going to play that out every single night? Yes, the first time might be interesting... but after like the third time most modern players won't care about it anymore. So it'll be handwaved-- you find food and shelter. Which is no different than the wizard using Tiny Hut. The Standard Operating Procedure during gameplay is no different.

A dwarf having darvision when no one else does? Sure, the WHY he has darkvision might be interesting from a character perspective... but during gameplay? It means everyone breaks out torches and Light spells and the party proceeds no differently than if everyone is using darkvision. So once again, the Standard Operating Procedure during gameplay is no different.

And if your players keep selecting the "10 most overpowered spells" each and every time... why does that matter? Are they able to get past whatever encounters you throw at them as part of the Story? Isn't that then up to you to change the Story so that they can't just rely on their Standard Operating Procedures (if indeed that is an issue?)

And as far as the King being assassinated... you're the DM. If that's the Story, then why is there a Court Cleric there in the chambers at all, or why does Revivify actually work? You can set up the assassination however you want, and give any reasoning why he wasn't able to be brought back from the dead. That's the glories of being the Dungeon Master. You don't have to play by only the rules within the 3 books... you can make up and play any type of rules and game you want. If you want the King dead because the Story that comes out of it that the players then get involved with... then the King is dead and the Story can progress. That's the entire crux of 5E gameplay.

 

[gorice]

I agree that there are more players these days who favor the story they're developing as part of the game over the resource management minigame. That said, I think there are problems with the specifics of the analysis. Any analysis pointing at things like darkvision or Leomund's Tiny Hut as indicators that the game is different now forgets that both were present in 1e 40 years ago. I recognize that acquisition of specific spells has changed over the years, but it's not like PC wizards couldn't see out and trade for LTH unless the DM blocked access to it. Most demi-humans had infravision. And clerics had ways to avoid the food/water issue. As I see it, the difference with those issues between D&D from 40 years ago and 5e are just a minor matter of degree. There's a whole lot of nostalgic haze and individual table traditions being peered through when trying to compare the two editions on concrete issues of resource management.

I don't think that's strictly fair. In Basic, 1e, and 2e, limited slots and actual Vancian casting meant that spell selection was a big deal. Wizard spells had to be found, like magic items, and could not be taken for granted. Only elves and dwarves had infravision, and they were generally less common due to being either (a) distinct classes, or (b) having lower max levels and limited class choices. Small details add up to big changes.

 

[payn]

It's a little funny how the most overused and powerful spells list came about. A lot of the low magic survival stuff pushed the optimization of magic and abilities to stop groups from getting TPK'd by thirst.

 

[TwoSix]

See this is a pivotal issue for me.

When I played before (I stopped when I was 35 for a while), my games were magical in many ways. I had magical locations, powerful magical items, as well as high-level casters (all this was in AD&D 1E/2E), magic-based storylines, etc.

But, for some reason, now--playing 5E--I seem to want games which are "low magic", less magic items, weaker casters, more mundane. It isn't just about the PCs, classes, spells, magic items--it is about the setting as well.

Why do I desire a less magical setting/game in 5E when I was very happy having a high magic (near Monty Haul (?) sometimes) setting/game in B/X and AD&D for over 25 years?

Not to get too psychological, but as we get older, our internal dialogues will naturally lean towards understanding our loss of potency and agency as we get older. It makes sense that our understanding of fantasy as a metaphor, as we age, might lean towards stories that are about characters making the most of their limited power and agency.

Even in escapism, we still seek narratives that resonate with our current circumstances.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't think that's strictly fair. In Basic, 1e, and 2e, limited slots and actual Vancian casting meant that spell selection was a big deal. Wizard spells had to be found, like magic items, and could not be taken for granted. Only elves and dwarves had infravision, and they were generally less common due to being either (a) distinct classes, or (b) having lower max levels and limited class choices. Small details add up to big changes.

Don't forget Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Stout-blooded Halflings!

 

[DEFCON 1]

I agree that there are more players these days who favor the story they're developing as part of the game over the resource management minigame. That said, I think there are problems with the specifics of the analysis. Any analysis pointing at things like darkvision or Leomund's Tiny Hut as indicators that the game is different now forgets that both were present in 1e 40 years ago. I recognize that acquisition of specific spells has changed over the years, but it's not like PC wizards couldn't see out and trade for LTH unless the DM blocked access to it. Most demi-humans had infravision. And clerics had ways to avoid the food/water issue. As I see it, the difference with those issues between D&D from 40 years ago and 5e are just a minor matter of degree. There's a whole lot of nostalgic haze and individual table traditions being peered through when trying to compare the two editions on concrete issues of resource management.

Heh... well, I'd say the big difference between then and now was that even though those spells were in the game... no one barely ever took them because they just weren't very good options compared to Clerics and Druids needing to usually take nothing but healing spells and Wizards needing as much AoE as possible to deal with the massive combat threats that DMs threw at them all the time. When you had to earmark every single spell you wanted into each spell slot and you had no options to change it until the next morning's rest... I think more often than not players said to themselves "Having another casting of Fireball today will ultimately have a better chance of being needed than Create Food and Water".

So it's actually part of 5E's casting system that allows spells like LTH and Goodberry to be used nowadays... because you can prepare it for little cost (just one of your myriad number of prepared spells) and then if you need it, great! But if not... then you can just keep casting that Fireball as much as you need instead.

 

[billd91]

I don't think that's strictly fair. In Basic, 1e, and 2e, limited slots and actual Vancian casting meant that spell selection was a big deal. Wizard spells had to be found, like magic items, and could not be taken for granted. Only elves and dwarves had infravision, and they were generally less common due to being either (a) distinct classes, or (b) having lower max levels and limited class choices. Small details add up to big changes.

The point is - if you wanted to play with reduced resource management in 1e, you could. And you did it by taking LTH, by playing races with infravision, by hiring a local guide when in wild lands and thus avoiding any chance of getting lost.
And if you want to play a game with more resource management in 5e, you can. Omit a few spells (or remove ritual castability) and races and you're pretty much there.

The fundamental difference is in the culture you want to foster for your specific table and campaign.

 

[Eric V]

I still wish WotC were more upfront on their design goals for 5e, but I suppose it's all there between the lines.

It's a good thing they weren't; "skip to the good stuff" was a 4e mantra.

 

[Garthanos]

So it's actually part of 5E's casting system that allows spells like LTH and Goodberry to be used nowadays... because you can prepare it for little cost (just one of your myriad number of prepared spells) and then if you need it, great! But if not... then you can just keep casting that Fireball as much as you need instead.

And that is a good thing to my thinking.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's a good thing they weren't; "skip to the good stuff" was a 4e mantra.

Here is the ultimate irony though... the 4E mantra of "skip to the good stuff" was skipping the roleplay event with the town guard to get to the combat encounter inside the gates. The 5E mantra of "skip to the good stuff" is skipping unnecessary combat encounters to get to the roleplaying event where your characters can actually engage with the narrative of what is happening in the world.

It's amazing to me how much the raison d'etre of the two games just swapped so completely.