The default campaign world - new article

Sounds pretty awesome, actually. Gave me a feeling of mystery and excitement, an echo of when I first started looking through the PHB. If they can give the new edition that feeling, even for players who are far from new, then count me in.
 

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Maggan said:
The thing I'm wondering about is how much space will the implied setting be allowed to take up in the books.
I would expect no more than you saw in the AD&D core books about Greyhawk (the "implied setting" in the AD&D days). Knowing Greyhawk and looking back you can see all the references to a sort of setting, and even explicit details in some areas. There wasn't a "here's a map of the world" section, though.
 


I really like it. Especially the blank slate fog of war feel it generates. Far from their being "no big cities or kingdoms" and "no political intrigue" I see the opposite, the potential. Hey GM/designer you need a big piece of real estate well the world is mostly vast empty and unexplored go to it. Don't worry that your new population hasn't been seen by many people before .. they don't travel far. On the other hand if you need adventurers it's possible a trade caravan just came through for the first time in ages and can get the word out.
 

Stereofm said:
Actually, even if you look at the dark ages, when things were indeed bleak, you'll notice that large kingdoms and empires were still around, but not necessarily where you needed them.

There were a lot of barbarian kings, but they did not like too much the idea of the caliphates or the byzantines showing up on their doors.

I know my history, so I am well aware that Charlemagne was made emperor in the year 800, which suggests that at least some people think it was an empire he ruled (not that it lasted long)

However, I didnt mean that huge empires couldnt exist, just that in a fantasy setting, huge empires with lots of highlevel (which usually follows the huge empires) are unrealistic if they havent got their turf under control :O)
 


I really like this, but

I do it a bit differently in my own campaign worlds. I tend to presume a Bronze Age. So Iron replaces Cold Iron, Silver is uncommon enough to be valuable - and replaces Alchemical Silver, and metalurgy of alloying is complex enough that many common people still think of smiths as borderline magical - as they can make metals that seem the same in appearance and yet have differing hardnesses, mallablity, etc.

In such a setting, civilization basically exists in the city states and in the scattered towns and villages - usually along rivers, as they give access to a ready source of clean (or at least drinkable) water and a swift(er) means of transport / communication. The latter is quite valuable in a land where each settlement is often on its own in a world still somewhat savage.

The main problem I have with the new setting concept (Points of Light) is that kingdoms are difficult to explain in such a setup and empires are impossible. How can a kingdom exist when the lands supposedly under the control / influence of the central authority in fact are autonomous? If they are truly able to survive even marginally on their own, and if travel between settlements is truly so difficult that it cannot be taken regularly, how can taxes be collected, how can orders for a gathering of knights / soldiers for some battle be sent out with any expectation that any will come? If some one does not come, will they risk the lives of those that did come to seek them personally? If they do not, their authority is further limited in the eyes of those that did come, and some of them may not come the next time the order is given, as no penalty has been applied. Do they punish the errant knights / freemen / whatever that did not come by withholding something from the village / town? But if each is autonomous there is little they can truly withhold that is actually needed.

It seems more that if a kingdom does exist, it *must* be a tyranical one, for how else could *any* kingdom hold any power / influence over an area *except* by force of arms? If it is powerful enough to enforce obedience, and if it can *make* communities obey its orders despite their self-sustainability and local autonomy - and the dangers to any who travel so as to obey, then the only option for such a power center I can see is a non-Good government.

If they wish to use Points of Light, then they should at least not make the suggestion that kingdoms exist - or, if they exist, that they ever exist for very long or are significant in size. A kingdom composed of only a few towns and villages very near to each other, with a castle next to one of the larger towns as its center of power, is believable. It is small enough and strong enough to hold off against casual / minor problems such as typical bandit groups and lower and perhaps even a rare instance of middle level monster. Its peoples are gathered near enough that they can be taxed and protected without too much difficulty, and the roads are likely safe enough not to require an armed guard for every journey. However, it is small enough and tight-knit enough to in effect be a single point of light, rather than several supposedly collected into a single kingdom. I can see a good government existing for such a kingdom, as a tyranical one would not be needed in this situation.

On the other hand, such kingdoms would rarely last more than a few generations. Sooner or later it would face something it couldn't handle and it would fall apart. Maybe it would face a single higher level monster. Perhaps it would face a rare middle level monster - and then face another one before it had time to fully recover. Or perhaps bandits from a neighboring region, having heard of how prosperous this area is (due to its size compared to most communities), will fall upon it, destroying so much of it before they are destroyed (*if* they are destroyed) that what remains falls apart back into its component pieces.

The point I am trying to make here, is that a "kingdom" in such a world can not both be the size we tend to bring to mind when we hear the word and also Good. It can be small and good, or it can be large and non-Good (or even small and non-Good, of course), but it cannot be large and Good. That would defeat the whole "Points of Light" concept, really. Small kingdoms composed of a few towns / villages and city-states are about the largest you can really get and keep the concept in tact - and those would be the rare truly large points of light in the darkness.

I wonder how the Forgotten Realms - the first setting to be officially released under 4e - will be re-written to make such possible? Some areas it can work quite well with, but what about the other areas?
 
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fuindordm said:
Ironically, to me this sounds like a world where adventurers are vital to the survival of civilization--and therefore have a reason for existing.

Just like all of the rest of them. But I suppose the presence of high-level NPCs not negating the need for low-level adventurers who do important things is a topic for a different thread.
 

It sounds like a return to 1st edition AD&D vibe, and 1st edition did have the best vibe, IMO.

People shouldn't be upset; you can still, as I will, have your city/intrigue/political/kingdom spanning Al-Qadim campaign or what not.

But I like the basic intimacy of Core that this implies.
 

Mouseferatu said:
The notion that anything in the article makes urban/political gaming impossible or unlikely is ludicrous.

They are seemingly changing the rules for social interaction, expanding beyond the single die roll of 3x.e (diplomacy... darnit but i dislike that skill) I don't think they would do so if they didn't want it to be an important part of the game.
But as much as i like the small town or hamlet based games, i hope they leave space in their setting for things like the City State of the Invincible Overlord (i think its called?), or Lankhmar. Or WFRP's Middenheim. I hope they will include at least one such citystate.

And I just hope they make the assumed setting a part of the srd. I would really like to see several different takes on the same setting. Not going to happen, but i think it would be a cool idea.

Another good thing about the "points of light in sea of darkness" setting, is how easy it would be to incorporate locations from adventures based in other settings. Need to place a haunted keep? Its just down the road from the Abandoned monestary, in the middle of the witchwood. Just a few clicks north from our village. No need to complicate matters by trying to incorporate it into a setting with a well established geography.
 

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