The Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense

[Pazu]

I think you'd have to take it on a case by case basis. Honestly, I can't imagine this ever actually coming up in play. What character would want to take Divine Oracle and something that requires evasion? Sounds like a concept disconnect to me.

Well, you can rationalize practically anything in search of the ultimate munch...

Actually, I can imagine a "magical investigator" type of character who takes some levels in Divine Oracle for the Divination bonuses, then goes into (for instance) Fochlucan lyrist. (Not that this is a particularly uber build.)

 

[IcyCool]

I think you'd have to take it on a case by case basis. Honestly, I can't imagine this ever actually coming up in play. What character would want to take Divine Oracle and something that requires evasion? Sounds like a concept disconnect to me.

-The Souljourner

Have you seen the build for a Fochlucan lyrist that counts Prescient Sense as evasion? I'll see if I can dig it up, but it's pretty uber.

IMO, if the designers of Divine Oracle wanted to give the class Evasion, they would have given it Evasion.

 

[Sejs]

I wouldn't equate Mettle and Evasion because they apply to different saves.

Hence similar but not identical.

Mechanically, Prescient Sense and Evasion function identically, except for the provision that Prescient Sense isn't limited by armor.

Exactly. Similar, but not identical. And unlike, say, Sudden Strike vs Sneak Attack, it's not denoted as functioning as its equivalent for the purpose of pre-reqs.

A related question: Some prestige classes gain Evasion, with the additional benefit that if the character already has Evasion, they gain Improved Evasion instead. Would a character with Prescient Sense, who gains levels in such a prestige class as noted above, then gain Improved Evasion?

No, because the character has no Evasion. They have Prescient Sense, which, while similar in function, is not Evasion.

 

[Sejs]

IMO, if the designers of Divine Oracle wanted to give the class Evasion, they would have given it Evasion.

That's pretty much my feelings on the matter as well.

As it stands, Prescient Sense works just fine on its own - it has its ups and downs compared to conventional Evasion. On the up side, it works in any armor, whereas Evasion is restricted. On the down side, it isn't Evasion so it doesn't count as such for other things like Prcs and qualifying for Improved Evasion.

 

[Pazu]

And unlike, say, Sudden Strike vs Sneak Attack, it's not denoted as functioning as its equivalent for the purpose of pre-reqs.

That's a better argument than the Mettle analogy.

No, because the character has no Evasion. They have Prescient Sense, which, while similar in function, is not Evasion.

After reading all the replies, I have pretty much come to agree with you on this point. Evasion =/= Prescient Sense.

 

[Mistwell]

Except not one single person has even attempted to deal with the words in the ability itself that SAYS IT IS A FORM OF EVASION. Or do you think they chose that word just coincidentally, despite specifically mentioning it's NOT coincidental that they are using that word since they actually mention the other classes with the ability named Evasion?

If you think that means it's not evasion, at least attempt to deal with the issue. If I say I am a form of a human, I am still a human. If I say this cup is a form of plastic, it's still plastic. If the ability says it's a form of evasion, it's still evasion.

If there is a flaw in that logic (and I the argument can be made that there is) at least make the argument instead of pretending it's not the elephant in the corner of the room.

 

[DM_Matt]

Except not one single person has even attempted to deal with the words in the ability itself that SAYS IT IS A FORM OF EVASION. Or do you think they chose that word just coincidentally, despite specifically mentioning it's NOT coincidental that they are using that word since they actually mention the other classes with the ability named Evasion?

If you think that means it's not evasion, at least attempt to deal with the issue. If I say I am a form of a human, I am still a human. If I say this cup is a form of plastic, it's still plastic. If the ability says it's a form of evasion, it's still evasion.

If there is a flaw in that logic (and I the argument can be made that there is) at least make the argument instead of pretending it's not the elephant in the corner of the room.

What he said. A Divine Oracle has a form of evasion, so when the PRC Req Check occurs, it sohuld show that he has evasion.

I hate to use so macabre an analogy, but if someone has a form of cancer, say, lung or stomach or brain, doesn't that also necessarily mean they have cancer?

Heck, looking at the first two google hits for "a form of," I get: "Blogging as a form of journalism," which explains that a blogger is in fact a journalist, and "Domestic Violence as a Form of Child Abuse," which asserts that one commits domestic violence in the presense of children necessarily is committing child abuse.

I think that linguistically its pretty clear that "X is a form of Y" clearly means that X is one of a number of subcatagories into which Y can be divided.

 

[Sejs]

That's a better argument than the Mettle analogy.

Heh, yeah, upon reflection that really wasn't the best analogy I've ever come up with. Ah well, live and learn.

Anyway - Mistwell and DM Matt, regarding the X is a form of Y. First off, here's the exact text of the ability as it appears in the book.

Prescient Sense (Ex): If a divine oracle makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally inflicts half damage on a successful save, she instead suffers no damage. This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the monk's and rogue's evasion ability.

The segment you gents are pointing to is:

"...This form of evasion..."

And thus coming to the conclusion that Prescient Sense is the same as Evasion. As a counterpoint, look to:

"...unlike the monk's and rogue's evasion ability."

Which leads to say that monks have Evasion. Rogues have Evasion, but this is a different ability that is not, in fact, Evasion. My personal oppinion has been already stated on the matter; that while they share similar function, the different name and lack of cross-compatability note says they're different. To look at DM Matt's cancer analogy from another angle, stomach cancer is a form of cancer and skin cancer is a form of cancer, but treatment for skin cancer won't help alieviate stomach cancer simply by virtue of both afflictions being cancer. For skin cancer treatments to work, you need to have skin cancer. So it goes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"...unlike the monk's and rogue's evasion ability."

Which leads to say that monks have Evasion. Rogues have Evasion, but this is a different ability that is not, in fact, Evasion.

EVASION AND IMPROVED EVASION
These extraordinary abilities allow the target of an area attack to leap or twist out of the way. Rogues and monks have evasion and improved evasion as class features, but certain other creatures have these abilities, too.

If subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a character with evasion takes no damage on a successful save.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.

Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.

Improved evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half damage.

So, you can see that it is possible to have Evasion that is not "the monk and rogue's evasion ability", but is still undeniably 'Evasion'. The monk and rogue have a form of Evasion that is not the only form of Evasion even in the Core Rules.

Prescient Sense is unlike the monk and rogue's evasion, but it is identical to the evasion in the DMG that isn't the monk and rogue's evasion ability. So "unlike the monk and rogue's evasion ability" doesn't preclude "this form of Evasion" from being a form of, well, Evasion.

-Hyp.

 

[boolean]

This also means that the author could have given the DO an ability called evasion, with text stating that it works in any armor.

They chose not to call it evasion, therefor it's not evasion. IMO, YMMV.