The DM doesn't like it when we go Out of Character...

[Lalato]

I'm playing in a short campaign with a couple of gaming newbies (less than 1 year of experience). Whenever combat rolls (no pun intended) around the gaming vets figure out what they want to do tactically, and they do it.

Not so the newbies... Since they don't know the mechanics all that well, they often make rookie mistakes. That wouldn't be that big a deal if we were playing low level characters. However, for the current mini-game we are all 8th level, with the exception of one character that is 12th.

So the vets give a little OOC advice about what a good tactical maneuver might be. The DM is usually quick to say that the newbies should decide for themselves and that we're speaking out of turn. I have no problem following the DMs rules, but it gets a bit irksome when my character's hide is on the line.

My argument against the DM is that the character is 8th level. While it might be possible for the character to reach 8th level without much knowledge of his/her spell list... or without a full understanding of how each feat works... I highly doubt it. All the veterans are providing is that extra bit of knowledge that any 8th level character would know like the back of his/her hand.

I guess my question is... why should the newbies, and the rest of the party for that matter, be penalized because the newbies don't have a firm grasp of what may or may not be a good tactical move?

--sam

 

[nHammer]

Sounds like a real jerk of a DM. Experience players should be helping newbs.

If a new player has problems playing the game he may get frustrated and not want to play anymore. That's bad for the hobby.

The DM needs to cut the players a little slack. Like you said these are experienced characters, they would have some tactical knowledge.

 

[cildarith]

Seems to me that your DM needs to lighten up a bit...

 

[Benben]

I've had to implement a rule like this too. The newbie players felt that they weren't allowed to play their own characters and were being shouted down in combat. Also they felt that their suggestions were never followed.

Not to mention that the best way to learn D&D tactics is to make mistakes and learn from them.

My suggestion is to talk to the DM, privately, and explain your feelings to him.

 

[Painfully]

This could do a lot with speeding up play as well. I, myself, have no problem with how your DM wants to do things, because the best way to learn is to make the mistakes yourself.

During combat, each player should be under pressure to act effectively. Nobody should be telling another player how to play their character. That is poor form IMO, especially for veterans of the game. Yelling to another character in the fight is one thing, but too much direction can really take the reigns out from under another player. Suggestions in character are fine, but out of character directing should be strongly discouraged.

If you have brand new players, of course they will need some addition information until they get used to combat, but it shouldn't take more than a few sessions before they can start to make their own combat decisions.

I worked hard to break in a group of newbies the same way as your DM. It worked well because after the session, I would let them know what kind of mistakes they made, and how they could avoid some of them in the future. So, I still got to give some advice, just not during the midst of combat. And if they happen to forget during the next similar situation, well, then it's their own fault.

It all comes down to DM'ing style. But when it comes to combat, do you really want to hear the arguements about why one move is tactically more sound than another one? Some groups have that kind of time to spare, but I find the pace of the game suffers for it. YOU, who are in control of your character, have to make the decision NOW! Combat just isn't the time to bring up strategy that can't be explained in 6 seconds of speech. Outside of combat is a much better time to bring up strategies and tactics.

 

[Emerald]

I would say the main guiding point would be are the other characters jumping with "helpful suggestions" instead of letting the newbies try things their way or are they simply anwering questions posed by the newbies (such as...where would I need to center a fireball to get the most enemies without hitting any friends, or what does this feat do, would it be effective in the current situation?)

I would want to limit the former to keep the vets from stepping on the toes of the newbies, but see no problem with the latter at all. As a matter of fact, I have been playing for almost 3 years and I still ask these questions every now and then (the rest of the group as been playing 10+ years) especially when it is a feat or spell I have not used before.

 

[ciaran00]

Actually you're giving them _tactical_ advice when all you should be doing is giving them advice on how the rules work. Also, note that you're putting your own life on the line by pursuing things with people who can't defend your flanks.

Sounds to me that your DM is making the right call.

ciaran

 

[TracerBullet42]

Not to mention that the best way to learn D&D tactics is to make mistakes and learn from them.

Very true...next time you won't blast the shambling mound with a lighting bolt, or unleash chain-lightning on some wil-o-wisps...

Hmm...this gives me an idea for a new thread...

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

That's why it's always good to start new players out at level 1. The learning curve is pretty steep at higher levels and combat is more unforgiving of poor tactics.

 

[Joachim Pieper]

There's a game-dynamic issue here as well, though. At 8th level, the game rather assumes you know what you're doing. We get this, even at 5th level. At the moment we are carrying two characters. One is a pointless sorceror-cleric with what appears to be a pathalogical fear of doing anything but stand around. The other is the party cleric, who is forever wading into combat. That's all well and good, but it creates a bad feeling when the rest of the party is begging him to heal the dying fighter, and he is striding into combat with wraiths.

It's a team effort, after all. Someone who has a plan shuld be able to communicate it.

Actually, we played one game where all the characters were deaf. The DM penalised players in xp if they spoke to each other during the combat. It was chaos, and we were roundly whopped by something we would have swatted with impunity had we been acting in concert...


Cheers.