The DM doesn't like it when we go Out of Character...

[wocky]

This kind of thing has been happening a lot lately in my campaign, and I've been very vocal about not allowing it.

I'm all for helping newbies, but metagame advice often slips when tactical advice is given ("you should have moved OVER THERE so I can take a 5' and flank"). I think this kind of thing takes from the fun of developing tactics, takes the thrill out of not knowing what to do, and eliminates most errors, which are usually fun for everyone

I'd rather run more forgiving enemies against newbies than allow the most experienced players handing tactics around the table. The newbies can be given advice after the session or encounter is done, and that's just as good.

Regarding casters, I'm willing to give clarifications or basic advice, but I always try to prevent newbies from playing them.

 

[rowport]

Two thoughts:
Your GM might be adjusting the encounter levels anticipating some mistakes by the less-experienced players, and by telling them what they "should" do, it effectively makes the encounters too easy.

Also, as many others have said, it is easy to go beyond rules clarification into tactical advice, and perhaps that is your GM's objection. It may be worth asking ground rules about what is or is not appropriate advice (if any) to give other players. It may be that even rules questions may only be addressed to the GM him (or her) self.

 

[TracerBullet42]

I'm all for helping newbies, but metagame advice often slips when tactical advice is given ("you should have moved OVER THERE so I can take a 5' and flank"). I think this kind of thing takes from the fun of developing tactics, takes the thrill out of not knowing what to do, and eliminates most errors, which are usually fun for everyone

Something we do in our game is share tactical ideas AFTER the combat. You have to wince and bite your tongue during the battle when you wish that your compadre had done something else, but when the battle is completed, you can then share ideas. I don't think it's far-fetched "character wise" either, since a party that fights together would most certainly develop some tactics after a few combats together.

No "in-combat" tactic sharing, but "post-combat" tactic sharing seems fine to me.

 

[Lalato]

Just so you guys know. My DM borders on Killer DM territory. He doesn't believe in holding back anything when creating his combat encounters. At the same time he is also very much into character development. It's a bit of an odd combination.

There have been several times that the party has been nearly TPKed or TPKed because the DM doesn't scale things back at all for the newbies.

One other oddity of my DM... he encourages newbies to develop their characters and feats without combat in mind. In other words he encourages characters to take less than combat optimal feats. However, whenever we encounter the BBEG or his henchmen, they are always combat optimized. Rarely do we see an NPC bad guy that isn't built to kill.

Oh yeah... the reason we're playing 8th level characters is because our 5th level characters were TPKed, and the 8th level characters were sent to investigate. That's why it's just a mini-game. Once the investigation is over, we're done with the campaign. Next we're moving to HeroQuest to try that system out.

Anyway, here are the things the 8th level group has faced so far...
A CR13 incorporeal, level draining, undead bad guy that came upon us in our sleep... and the DM ruled that two characters, a greenbond and a witch (we're playing Arcana Unearthed) could not be awakened by the combat because they both rolled "1" on their listen checks. If it weren't for the AU Hero Point mechanic, we would have all been dead pretty quickly... but now we're all out of Hero Points so that's not a viable tactic anymore.

What do we face next in our investigation of our former party's death? A CR12 dragon that making lunch meat out of us, until the greenbond got lucky with a Bind with Plants spell. The Dragon only need to roll a 4 or higher to make his save, lucky for us he rolled a 2. Had the dragon made that save, we would have all died.

Now don't get me wrong... I'm a big proponent of what the DM says is Law. I'm willing to live under certain rules. However, people may learn from their mistakes... that's true. People also learn from their mentors. And I'd rather a mentor show me how to do it right the first time, than me make a mistake that costs someone their life.

--sam

 

[Arnwyn]

The newbie players felt that they weren't allowed to play their own characters and were being shouted down in combat. Also they felt that their suggestions were never followed.

Not to mention that the best way to learn D&D tactics is to make mistakes and learn from them.

I totally concur with this.

Sounds to me like your DM is making the right decision. Yes, it's tough on the veteran players, but that's just the way it goes when you have rookies.

They'll learn faster if the veteran players lay off the rookies and let them make their own decisions.

 

[Lalato]

Something we do in our game is share tactical ideas AFTER the combat. You have to wince and bite your tongue during the battle when you wish that your compadre had done something else, but when the battle is completed, you can then share ideas. I don't think it's far-fetched "character wise" either, since a party that fights together would most certainly develop some tactics after a few combats together.

No "in-combat" tactic sharing, but "post-combat" tactic sharing seems fine to me.

I agree with you. I've done the same.

One caveat here though... It's not much fun if the advice is given after everyone is dead. As I noted above, my DM tends to border on Killer DM territory. He doesn't take glee in killing PCs, but he pulls no punches and he throws things at us that would seem to be a bit overpowered at times.

--sam

 

[Woas]

I agree with the DM. Infact I tell my players that they cannot even speak unless it is there turn in combat. (Unless there just asking for someone to pass the soda, PHB or something of the like)

I encurage my players to think about combat BEFORE they engage. Make battle plans. Several in fact. Recon is your friend.

My players have developed tactics and meanuvers and given them 'code' names. So the leader of the group will yell out the tactical name, "Gamma Strike!" or something to that effect and the players will know that they need to wheel left and flank the spell caster around the corner. This has helped roleplaying and the speed of combat very much. The playes also are not allowed to just announce their HP like it was everyones business. The cleric can heal people based on how they might look, or you may yell for the cleric on your turn if you need him/her. Before I made these rules my players where like a multi brained-multi armed amoeba. Whos ever turn it was they were all telling each other what to do. The cleric knew everyones HP down to the last digit. Eventually I made it so whatever they want to say in combat is fine, but that means the monsters will hear it too.. so that resulted in the 'code' names and he pre-planned combat tactics.

In the end, I can't even think of combat any other way.

 

[Darklone]

Looks like a good way to scare newbies away.

 

[Gaius Agricola]

I have to agree with the DM´s ruling here, and the ideas bandied about by others, as well. I´ve seen the newbie be overruled and outright told what to do in a game before, and it generally leads to that newbie not coming back.
I currently co-dm a game (the other co-DM and I share a character and alternate weekly), and I'm considering talking with him about implementing more stringent in-combat talking rules, especially the "no talking when it isn't your turn" rule. We seem to have the 'multibrained multiarmed ameoba' thing going on, as well. I do also plan on making up a set of 'combat action cards' for everyone, with the mechanics of each action (charge, disarm, etc.), so they can look over their options before their turn comes around. At any rate, we currently have too much meta-gaming and table talk, which generally serves to slow down the game when combat rolls around.

 

[Desdichado]

Sounds like both of you need to lighten up, in my opinion. Let the newbies make mistakes, rather than worry that they're not doing the "best" thing.

And any DM that tells me "I'm speaking out of turn" is a DM I won't be playing with for long. My roleplaying sessions are a social activity, not a classroom.