The DM doesn't like it when we go Out of Character...

[Kichwas]

A new player does need some help - specifically with the nature and use of their abilities, and the fundamental rules of the game.

I'd say it's perfectly fair to warn them for example, that if they go 'over there' they're be subject to an AoO - something an experienced player doesn't deserve warning on. It's also fair to tell them they could use Power Attack here, or Rapid Shot there, or why to use sleep instead of Magic Missile (or vice Versa) in a given moment.

A good DM needs to make this does not become players trying to control the actions of that new player.

I may be incorporating a new player myself soon - my sister who hasn't played since 83 and is thus technically a newbie. In such a case I have the added problem of making sure I'm not appearing biased towards a relative.

I've got no issue with players who speak out of turn, and freely turn the game over to chatter when it arises. It is a social activity first and foremost after all.

 

[Woas]

My roleplaying sessions are a social activity, not a classroom.

Its not as strict as I make it sound. Our sessions are very much social activities as well. Heck, between work and school and everything sometimes the only time I see someone all week is when we get together to roleplay.

Its just in combat and tense decision making/do or die situations I ask that people please hold the OoC and In-Character suggestions... if they want their character to speak, then they must wait their turn. If you need to know what time it is, the chips passed or someone to hand the PHB over to you for a sec while you check on a spell then go right ahead. Even some personal chit-chat (What ya been up to? Hows the wife and kids? etc) is fine while your waiting for your turn to come back up is ok to a point.

But telling the fighter to trip the bugbear with his halberd cause he gets that +2 to trip attempts with it so that you can Coup de Grace him next turn when its not your turn at all... thats what I can't stand.

My arguement is that the players are a party of adventurers. They know they will find armed resitance somewhere in their travels and they will need to fight. Further more they should know that they will need to fight fairly often. Thus, someone who knows that their 'job' is to meet resistance and over come it, they should have battle tactics and strategy planned BEFORE the conflict.. not during and after.

@Gaius Agricola:

From my personal experience, I can't express how much its helped our combats and other 'sticky' situations. The players have developed some good strategies.

 

[LGodamus]

Especially with arcana unearthed, being more complicated than base D&D, you should have started out at first or second level since you dont know the system....doubly so with any spell casters .

 

[Kichwas]

But telling the fighter to trip the bugbear with his halberd cause he gets that +2 to trip attempts with it so that you can Coup de Grace him next turn when its not your turn at all... thats what I can't stand.

Having been in a military gunfight, I know it's perfectly ok to let people shout out things in battle like "Trip the bugbear, *$$@@!! trip the bugbear!"

Of course... the Bugbear's companions are likely to then yell out "Watch out for the guy with the halberd!" As they all take aim on either the Halberd wielder or the guy who's just announced that's he's in charge.

 

[Mallus]

Actually you're giving them _tactical_ advice when all you should be doing is giving them advice on how the rules work. Also, note that you're putting your own life on the line by pursuing things with people who can't defend your flanks.
ciaran

Actually, no-ones life is on the line, its only a game

Seriously, what's wrong with giving new players tactical advice? If the DM [and the rest of the players] agreed to play with novices, then they all tacitly agreed to teach them the game as well.

Just 'showing them the rules' isn't the most effective way to teach a game to someone. Imagine doing that with chess.

D&D is a co-operative game, and getting everyone up to speed should be a group goal, right?

 

[Desdichado]

Of course, you can do (as arcady suggests) perfectly in character dialogue in combat, and I often do that as well.

I agree, metagame discussions during combat are not very fun, but then again, for newbie players, it's probably pretty crucial to talk them through what they're doing vs. what they can do until they get the hang of it.

 

[Harlock]

Speaking in character is a free action that does not provoke and AoO in my games... I'd give the vets 6 seconds to shout while they perform their actions. Anyone who has ever been in a real combat situation where stealth is not an option knows that shouting, and a lot of it, goes on for all sides of the conflict. Sometimes from someone barking orders, to your buddy who just had his legs shot off screaming in pain. In stealth situations there are always hand signals.

 

[Pielorinho]

I had the same issue with my DM a few years ago. Basically, I and another player knew the rules extremely well, while a third player, great at character building, had a much looser grasp of the rules and of tactics. We kept reminding her that if she cast the spell while standing next to the dragon it'd get an AoO, and if she moved back 20 feet to cast it she'd also suffer an AoO. If we were fighting spectres and she kept busting out with the sleep spell, we might remind her that magic missile would definitely hit immaterial creatures, whereas sleep wouldn't affect the undead. It drove our DM crazy, and I think it embarrassed the player.

We resolved it by giving advice duties to the DM, for the most part. Before she did something that was rules-stupid (such as incurring an AoO), he'd redescribe the scene to her: "If you cast the spell this close to the dragon, he might be able to take a swipe at you, but you can take a step back and probably cast it safely," he'd say. Or, "That 10 on a knowledge: arcana check is good enough; you know that sleep spells traditionally don't work on ghostlike creatures, but magic missiles almost always hit them."

And then we could shout tactical advice in-character. "Do that sphere-thingy on the big guy!" we'd shout, if we wanted her to cast an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on the nasty tank fighter. We'd ask the DM for permission if we wanted to say something to her or another PC when it wasn't our turn, and in any case we'd keep the comments fairly short.

If both sides are pretty relaxed about it, and keep everyone's fun as the primary goal, you should be able to resolve the problem.

Daniel

 

[ciaran00]

Actually, no-ones life is on the line, its only a game

Maybe I was too subtle. Yes, exactly. It's a game. This means that the player's frustration about his character getting bopped because another character is inept shouldn't carry into OOC "hey, my character's gonna die. Why don't you do _________" Also, from a game standpoint, we have, say four fighters two of whom are relatively inept. If within the context of the game the experienced two decide to battle against a four-fighter threat then they're being foolish, aren't they?

Seriously, what's wrong with giving new players tactical advice? If the DM [and the rest of the players] agreed to play with novices, then they all tacitly agreed to teach them the game as well.

Nothing. Simply from the tone of the original post, it seemed to me that the player advice came in the form I have frequently seen it exercised as: players telling other players what to do, most of the time to the advantage of their own characters. It's subtle, and never intended to be selfish, but it turns out that way.

Just 'showing them the rules' isn't the most effective way to teach a game to someone. Imagine doing that with chess.

Well, nothing prevents the two elite fighters from giving the other two a tongue-lashing for endangering their lives. Nothing prevents the playerss of the latter two characters from reading a Player's Handbook. In the heat of combat I think it's inappropriate for players to "telepathically" act in concert (whether or not their character's lives are at stake). This is largely because these characters have placed themselves into a lethal situation by their own acts: it's only fair to expect them to resolve it with the resources at hand without inventing new resources (like instantaneous communication and defaulting to the highest Intelligence score in the party to solve a problem).

D&D is a co-operative game, and getting everyone up to speed should be a group goal, right?

D&D also is a roleplaying game, last I checked

ciaran

 

[Mog Elffoe]

Sounds like both of you need to lighten up, in my opinion. Let the newbies make mistakes, rather than worry that they're not doing the "best" thing.

And any DM that tells me "I'm speaking out of turn" is a DM I won't be playing with for long. My roleplaying sessions are a social activity, not a classroom.

Amen, on both counts.