D&D General The DM is Not a Player; and Hot Topic is Not Punk Rock

[Charlaquin]

DMs and Players have different responsibilities. As others have said, the rules state this, so how could it be otherwise. As for the muddying of the waters that many like to do to highlight their own personal opinions on things like, who is responsible for world building, or who has authoritative power over others and such, well, that's group dynamics. Some groups will give the DM total control over all aspects of world building, others will insist that world building be a collaborative affair. Muddying the waters doesn't change the fact that Players and DMs have different responsibilities.

Perhaps if Players were called something else, like Character Runners, or Personal Character Narrators, it would make it much harder to muddy the waters to make arguments about how they both "play" the game so they must absolutely all have an equal say in every aspect of the game. Simply put, they don't.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that DMs are players so as to make an argument that the DM and the (other) players should have an equal say in every aspect of the game. Certainly I am not. The rules clearly define different roles and responsibilities to the DM than to the (other) players. That doesn’t make them not a player, nor does being a player negate the authority granted to the player in that role by the rules

 

[Guest User]

"In all cases, the GM must do his best to remain disinterested while retaining the power of absolute arbiter."

Snarf, an "Absolute Arbiter" is not the same as a Neutral Arbiter.

The Head Umpire of an American Football game does not make alterations, to the dimensions of the field, doesn't ban Long bomb passes, doesn't add extra players to the field, and doesn't have specific plans for what the half time score is.

A real life DM, probably does all of these...and more.

The Absolute Arbiter sounds like a title fit for a repressive theocracy.

 

[embee]

And I suppose that the fact that CBGB became an incubator for East Coast Punk and New Wave tells you what you need to know about Country, BlueGrass, and Blues in New York City in the 1970s.

You are forgetting about Other Music From the UnderGround.

 

[billd91]

The real question is why does the hamburger helper glove only have 3 fingers? What happened to it's pinky and does it have anything to do with their secret ingredients?

It's like some weird law of animation. Mickey Mouse, the Simpsons, the Flintstones, Bob the Builder...

 

[Charlaquin]

The same point ... that is the OP. Because the OP was written by an attractive, articulate, indubitably correct person that likely smells like fresh laundry.

ahem

Seriously, though, that was the first section of OP, but you were just doing it in reverse. It's the pedantic point of definitions and usage.

A: DMs and Players are both "Players" because they both "play" the game, and someone who "plays" a game is called a "player."

B: DMs are not Players because there are two distinct groups that are referred to in D&D; "DMs" and "Players", and referring to the DM as a Player (or vice versa) is bizarre and confusing, and no one would ever do it.

Notice what's going on? Yes, if I DMd, I would also say that I "played" D&D in the broadest possible sense- because D&D is a game, and I acted in the game, and therefore I "played" the game. Because we lack that level of fine distinction in our word choice.

OTOH, if I am discussing D&D, I would never confuse "player" and "DM" because those are two completely separate roles within the game. Some historical examples:
Might & Magic states that "Number of Players: At least one referee and from four to fifty players can be handled in any single campaign, but the referee to player ratio should be about 1:20 or thereabout." (50 players!)
Moldvay puts it like this: "When a group plays a D&D game, one person acts as a referee and is known as the Dungeon Master (DM). Others play the roles of fantasy characters and are called the players."

There is a lot of confusion between two similar, but different, terms: player (as in a generic "one who plays" and doesn't like playa haters) and player (the role of player in D&D).

Saying that DMs are players needlessly confused the two terms. IMO.

Again, I don’t disagree with you that there is needless confusion. But the cause of that confusion is clearly using the same word that means “person who plays the game” to describe one of the two roles people who play the game Dungeons and Dragons take on.

 

[prabe]

Again, I don’t disagree with you that there is needless confusion. But the cause of that confusion is clearly using the same word that means “person who plays the game” to describe one of the two roles people who play the game Dungeons and Dragons take on.

It's hard to imagine English of all languages having a lexographical shortage, but ... apparently it does.

 

[embee]

It's like some weird law of animation. Mickey Mouse, the Simpsons, the Flintstones, Bob the Builder...

The law is the Green Doctrine.

It takes less time to draw three fingers than to draw four. Time is money. Therefore, by the transitive property, it is cheaper to animate three-fingered characters than four-fingered characters.

Less green gets spent.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Snarf, an "Absolute Arbiter" is not the same as a Neutral Arbiter.
.

The word you were looking for in that quote is “disinterested.” Let’s try again.

"In all cases, the GM must do his best to remain disinterested while retaining the power of absolute arbiter."

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm going to quote myself, and bold this for emphasis.

This, this right here, is exactly why people still love Moldvay. Do you see what he did that almost every other edition and description struggles with?

He succinctly explained it in two sentences, and he didn't use the word "play" or "player" when describing the DM, thus confusing people with imprecise words.

He's like the anti-Gygax. Every single time I read Moldvay, I am impressed with his economy and precision.

But he still made the poor decision of naming one of the two player roles “player.”

 

[embee]

It's hard to imagine English of all languages having a lexographical shortage, but ... apparently it does.

That is proven time and again when a person is kindly asked to stop using a slur of some kind, only to be met with the sort of righteous indignation that traditionally precedes a duel at ten paces.

How dare I be asked to expurgate that word! However will I manage with only a quarter million other words from which to choose?! It is an outrage up with which I shall not put!