D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Imaro]

That's the $64,000 question. The underlying mechanic has to support a range of flavoring, such that it can be destiny in one game, but something different in other games. I think you can read Conan as a destiny example, though I can also see cases made for other readings. That's why it is a playstyle thing.

Ideally, the flavoring would imply certain limits on the mechanic, but the mechanic would be broad enough to still have plenty left to pick from. That is, if you are playing Conan as "luck and the cynical inattention of the gods," then Conan ain't getting dipped in no magic river at birth. OTOH, his uncanny glare and reflexes from his early formative career is very much developed into a "heroic ability" later on, which would fit that playstyle.

I agree... I think this would definitely be an area where a page talking about reskinning the orign of the fighter's abilities and another with different examples possibly linked to genre or even literary characters would go a long way to accomplishing this.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I agree... I think this would definitely be an area where a page talking about reskinning the orign of the fighter's abilities and another with different examples possibly linked to genre or even literary characters would go a long way to accomplishing this.

Also keywords on the abilities, but explicitly called out as guide to playstyle, not balance/mechanical limits. So if group is playing a "destiny" game, that means that any fighter can pick from any ability (at the appropriate power levels) with the "destiny" keyword, and know that it is reasonably flavored therein. (The group might still include/ban things off the guidelines individually, but you don't want to have to go over the whole list.)

Most abilities would have multiple keywords, as most will fit some playstyles but not others. This lets groups easily run an "almost anything goes" campaign, where only a keyword or two are banned. Moreover, when a player picks an ability, he picks from one of the keywords to explain why that character has it. That is, you can't pick generically but must explain the flavor behind the pick. Some groups might require a player to pick consistently, which also reinforces the flavor.

 

[Underman]

The only reason I'm not big on the destiny idea is because it has a distinctly non-sword and sorcery feel to it... I don't think it would work very well in a conan-esque game of D&D.

That's the $64,000 question. The underlying mechanic has to support a range of flavoring, such that it can be destiny in one game, but something different in other games. I think you can read Conan as a destiny example, though I can also see cases made for other readings. That's why it is a playstyle thing.

Technically, Conan does operate on destiny. He is destined to survive through so many trials and tribulations because Robert E Howard wanted him to. Excalibur was destined to be with Arthur because the storyteller wanted it to happen. The only difference is that destiny is translocated as "author wants this plot device" to "the gods wished it" or "extraordinary luck" or whatever. Hit points is really a form of destiny too, isn't it? ie., this PC survives through more battles because the players wants that to be true, and the in-game explanation may vary. So I think a fate warrior can work in almost any campaign except a low-level gritty one, but in one campaign it's more explicitly at the forefront and in other campaigns it's brushed off as luck or whatnot.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Why do you think it wouldn't work for alot of people?

Because enough people had significant problems with "Your fighter can, [X] per [day, combat, etc.], do something martially flashy" that I believe that "Your fighter can, [X] per [day, combat, etc.], create or change a magic weapon" will face significant resistance.

 

[Imaro]

Because enough people had significant problems with "Your fighter can, [X] per [day, combat, etc.], do something martially flashy" that I believe that "Your fighter can, [X] per [day, combat, etc.], create or change a magic weapon" will face significant resistance.

I think this very much depends on how the class and it's abilities are explained and related to the fiction.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Technically, Conan does operate on destiny. He is destined to survive through so many trials and tribulations because Robert E Howard wanted him to. Excalibur was destined to be with Arthur because the storyteller wanted it to happen. The only difference is that destiny is translocated as "author wants this plot device" to "the gods wished it" or "extraordinary luck" or whatever. Hit points is really a form of destiny too, isn't it? ie., this PC survives through more battles because the players wants that to be true, and the in-game explanation may vary. So I think a fate warrior can work in almost any campaign except a low-level gritty one, but in one campaign it's more explicitly at the forefront and in other campaigns it's brushed off as luck or whatnot.

Sure. However, in Conan, the rationale for the destiny is roughly, "Crom gives his people gifts at birth. Then ignores you. And you don't want to get his attention." Most people that say "destiny" don't mean something like that, and certainly Howard wouldn't have thought much of "destiny" in the usual reckoning of the term. Furthermore, in some stories destiny is more front-loaded (prophecy being an extreme example), while in others it is something said at the end to explain what happened. And everything in between.

So I guess I agree that "fate warrior" pretty much works everywhere--even in the gritty game if you squint at it right. But what you call it is going to matter--both in how they players feel about it and what they allow/disallow to happen under that aegis.

 

[Underman]

Sure. However, in Conan, the rationale for the destiny is roughly, "Crom gives his people gifts at birth. Then ignores you. And you don't want to get his attention." Most people that say "destiny" don't mean something like that, and certainly Howard wouldn't have thought much of "destiny" in the usual reckoning of the term.

I'm not that familiar with conan stories, so asking as devil's advocate, what exactly is Crom's gift to Conan at birth: you are effectively immortal, as long as you're fighting your enemies, even if you don't know it? Does Conan know that? Does Conan ignore armor half (?) the time because it interferes with his mojo?

I don't think Conan is self-aware of why he survives through so much. He may strongly suspect he has the luck of the god, but I doubt he believes he's semi-immortal.

I'm not honestly sure where I'm going with this. I think that we are coming up with surface explanations when nobody is really sure what hit points and levelling really means in the fiction.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm not that familiar with conan stories, so asking as devil's advocate, what exactly is Crom's gift to Conan at birth: you are effectively immortal, as long as you're fighting your enemies, even if you don't know it? Does Conan know that? Does Conan ignore armor half (?) the time because it interferes with his mojo?

I don't think Conan is self-aware of why he survives through so much. He may strongly suspect he has the luck of the god, but I doubt he believes he's semi-immortal.

I'm not honestly sure where I'm going with this. I think that we are coming up with surface explanations when nobody is really sure what hit points and levelling really means in the fiction.

Well, undestand that my take is going to be biased by my take on fantasy literature in general--which I know for a fact is not shared by many people today, but that said I have read the complete Howard Conan recently.

Crom's gifts to his people are ambiguous, when you start talking game terms--not least of all because it is ambiguous in the story how much of Conan's belief's about Crom's gifts are meant to be taken at face value, versus a statement about Conan himself. That's separate from Conan the character conceived by Howard to get him some ready cash when other stories weren't paying out very well, and he was very much in need of the money. Conan's "destiny" was to pay Howard's expenses.

But no, Conan very much does not see himself as immortal or invulnerable. Far from it. He's rather fatalistic at times; living in the moment all the time. Crom has given him the gifts of being born a Cimmerian, thus the opportunity to become tough and skilled--to avoid the decandence of civilization in his formative years. Theodoric, the first barbarian to become the Roman Emporer, instead of merely using it for some recreational pillage, might have felt similarly.

I think there is more to it on the mental/code of living side, but that's too complicated and ambiguous to delve deep into here. Suffice to say that his background lets Conan will himself to certain things, and daunt others, at crucial moments.

 

[Neonchameleon]

What about simple enlightenment. The fighter sleeps, eats and breathes combat and as he levels it becomes more engrained in him on an almost natural level... like breathing. Through this "enlightenment" the fighter first begins to recognize uses for mundane weapons and armor that others may not have ever fathomed or have the skill to use in such ways...eventually he can do the same with magical armor and weapons (but even greater uses since there...well...magic.)... at higher levels he gets to the point where he can instinctually recognize and use powers in those weapons a man or woman (including sages and wizards) who wasn't as attuned to combat and it's ways would never even recognize the weapon possesed. Finally his combat abilties with weapons and armor are legend and thus he instinctually imprints his choice of powers upon magic weapons and enchanted armor through his very use of them.

In short the fighter is a very specialised form of caster? This I find incredibly weird as a "generic hitty guy" class.

I think this is an interesting approach (it's mirrored somewhat in the Magus class in Pathfinder, who can temporarily add magic abilities to a particular weapon several times per day), and that it could work really well: at 15th-level, your fighter character can treat every magic weapon as if it had the vorpal property, or he can change a weapon between a flameblade and an icingdeath, ferinstance.

On the other hand, I suspect it would not work for a lot of people.

Why do you think it wouldn't work for alot of people?

Because it makes the fighter into a magic user? The key thing about a fighter is that he fights. Not that he's a sort of artificer. And I'd argue that a high level fighter ought to be able to slay a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass rather than be entirely reliant on magic swords.

 

[Underman]

And I'd argue that a high level fighter ought to be able to slay a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass rather than be entirely reliant on magic swords.

Let's be careful about our comparisons, no? A high level D&D fighter probably could take on a lot of 0-level or minionized humans with the jawbone of an ass. But can that same fighter kill a dragon with a jawbone? If yes, could he have killed the same dragon more easily if he had a legendary sword? More importantly, perhaps, is it a given that Samson didn't receive a boon of strength from God (ie, a holy power source)?

Edit: Yes. From wikipedia: "Samson was granted supernatural strength by God in order to combat his enemies and perform heroic feats"