D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Umbran]

Can you name a character from mythology who can throw lightning bolts or fireballs and isn't a god?

Confirmation bias error - mythology is primarily about gods in the first place. Outside of Greek/Roman myth, how many mortals from mythology can you name at all?

My point is that what the wizard does *looks* like what Zeus does, but that's a superficial, visual similarity. That 5th level wizard can only chuck lighting 120'. He cannot do so from the clouds, or the top of a mountain. He does a whopping 17.5 average damage (save for half), at which Zeus would laugh, and the 5th level fighter will quickly and more regularly dole out with a sword.

Basically, taking into account the actual effect the wizard has on the world, what he's doing isn't all that miraculous. It looks cool, but his actual impact on the environment isn't godlike.

 

[SKyOdin]

If the ability to two guys in the space of six seconds were mundane and not magic my 4E Fighter would do it every round and probably rarely use an at will. So yep its fighter magic.

The idea that mundane things can be done at-will without end is hilariously naive. I presume you can ride a bike. Can you ride a bike for 24-hours on end without stopping? I doubt it.

Of course mundane things have limits! Human beings don't run on magic or machinery. The idea that magic is limited and mundane is unlimited is ludicrous under any logical scrutiny.

Especially when we are talking about highly abstracted game mechanics that obey narrativist principles far more than simulationist ones.

 

[Shadeydm]

The idea that mundane things can be done at-will without end is hilariously naive. I presume you can ride a bike. Can you ride a bike for 24-hours on end without stopping? I doubt it.

Of course mundane things have limits! Human beings don't run on magic or machinery. The idea that magic is limited and mundane is unlimited is ludicrous under any logical scrutiny.

Especially when we are talking about highly abstracted game mechanics that obey narrativist principles far more than simulationist ones.

So stabbing someone with my weapon pushing them 3 squares and moving an extra square myself (which i can do at will) is less than taxing than standing still and stabbing two people LOL love your logic buddy.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If the ability to two guys in the space of six seconds were mundane and not magic my 4E Fighter would do it every round and probably rarely use an at will. So yep its fighter magic.

If the ability to run 100 metres in under 10 seconds were mundane and not magic Usain Bolt would do it every 10 seconds and so run the marathon in about 4220 seconds, or just over 1 hour 10 minutes. So that must be Sprinter Magic.

Right.

Edit: And care to show me which fighter At Will gives you the ability to push someone three squares at will? The only actual at will powers that a fighter has that move people that I can think of are Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure. It's not Footwork Lure and Tide of Iron only moves people one square.

 

[SKyOdin]

Confirmation bias error - mythology is primarily about gods in the first place. Outside of Greek/Roman myth, how many mortals from mythology can you name at all?

My point is that what the wizard does *looks* like what Zeus does, but that's a superficial, visual similarity. That 5th level wizard can only chuck lighting 120'. He cannot do so from the clouds, or the top of a mountain. He does a whopping 17.5 average damage (save for half), at which Zeus would laugh, and the 5th level fighter will quickly and more regularly dole out with a sword.

Basically, taking into account the actual effect the wizard has on the world, what he's doing isn't all that miraculous. It looks cool, but his actual impact on the environment isn't godlike.

Err... there are a lot of mortals in mythology. Heracles is a mortal up until his death. Demigod is nowhere close to being the same thing as a god. The entire crew of the Argo? Mortals. Most of the cast of the Illiad and Odyssey? Mortal. Every other demigod hero? Mortal. Most don't possess even the slightest touch of divine power, even with divine parentage. Also, not a single one can throw lightning.

Truth be told, the difference between mortal, demi-god, and god is not that great in mythology. For example, Ares, the God of War, was often bested by mere-mortals in combat.

For that matter, D&D wizards can create their own planes of existence. They can also make magic artifacts that put Excalibur to shame. D&D wizards are ludicrously powerful, perhaps comparatively far more so than any mythological figure, god or mortal. Who cares if lightning bolt only does 5d6 damage compared to every other tool a wizard also has at their disposal.

 

[Shadeydm]

If the ability to run 100 metres in under 10 seconds were mundane and not magic Usain Bolt would do it every 10 seconds and so run the marathon in about 4220 seconds, or just over 1 hour 10 minutes. So that must be Sprinter Magic.

Right.

I'm quite sure his legs or his speed don't dramatically fall off once he passes the 101 meter mark. And i'm quite sure stabbing someone and pushing them 3 squares while moving an extra square my self which my fighter can do every round is more taxing than stading still and stabbing two adjacent foes or stabbing the same guy twice two "encounter" powers.

 

[Imaro]

Here are two disconnects I'm still having with this issue...

1. Wizards and Clerics are able to bend the laws of nature and thus superscede the normal limitations of a D&D world person... because they discover, learn and cast spells which in turn allow them to control/shape/whatever magical energy. They have justification, limitations and process... However what I am seeing in this thread is fighter's shouldn't need justification, limitations or process to cleave mountains, redirect rivers, etc.... they should just be able to reshape reality... Huh??? I can see why that feels like cartoon logic (of the Looney Tunes variety) to many.

2. D&D is not and never was billed as a generic fantasy game... so then what does it matter whether wizards are based on anything from myth or literature, and why should fighters be? D&D is it's own genre and was never made to perfectly mimc any of it's sources... so where does this insistence that it should come from?

 

[Imaro]

Err... there are a lot of mortals in mythology. Heracles is a mortal up until his death. Demigod is nowhere close to being the same thing as a god. The entire crew of the Argo? Mortals. Most of the cast of the Illiad and Odyssey? Mortal. Every other demigod hero? Mortal. Most don't possess even the slightest touch of divine power, even with divine parentage. Also, not a single one can throw lightning.

Truth be told, the difference between mortal, demi-god, and god is not that great in mythology. For example, Ares, the God of War, was often bested by mere-mortals in combat.

For that matter, D&D wizards can create their own planes of existence. They can also make magic artifacts that put Excalibur to shame. D&D wizards are ludicrously powerful, perhaps comparatively far more so than any mythological figure, god or mortal. Who cares if lightning bolt only does 5d6 damage compared to every other tool a wizard also has at their disposal.

You do realize Umbran said outside of Greek/Roman myth.

 

[Underman]

Die Myths, Die!

Something that needs to be said about myths. They are very, very inconsistent.

They often have a weird sort of dream logic. For example, Thor lifting the cat's paw which happens to be Jörmungandr, the World Serpent. So a super-colossal sea serpent that encircles Midgard is also a small cat in a giant's hut.

Most fantasy novels do not read like real-life myths.

I can't think of any fantasy movies that plays out like a myth. (If there were, it would be some trippy controversial avante-gard artsy film).

D&D mythologies (ie., the creation of the planes, the stories of the gods) are less mythic in tone. To reitereate, real-life myths are more mythic than D&D myths.

If I had god-like abilities, I would banish to Hell all attempts to compare mythic oranges to D&D apples. Failing that, I can merely beg like a mere mortal with no superhuman ability to persuade.

 

[Imaro]

For that matter, D&D wizards can create their own planes of existence. They can also make magic artifacts that put Excalibur to shame. D&D wizards are ludicrously powerful, perhaps comparatively far more so than any mythological figure, god or mortal. Who cares if lightning bolt only does 5d6 damage compared to every other tool a wizard also has at their disposal.

But D&D has never claimed to be the roleplaying game of greek mythology... that is but one small influence upon it's design amongst many.