D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Imaro]

No.

Magic flows through the world, and certain creatures are rich in it. Without magic flowing through their bones hill giants would collapse under their own weight due to the square cube ratio and dragons would tear their own wings off before blowing up in a nasty mess of internal plumbing. An anti-magic field should kill a dragon stone cold dead; their very existance relies on magic.

Arcane spells are a way of manipulating magic. They are creatures directly taking and sculpting the magic to their own ends rather than channeling it through the lens of a god (divine) or the spirits inherent in nature (primal). To use 3.x terminology, Fey Step is (Su). Arcane magic ranges from (Sp) to out and out spellcasting (with the Bard being its normal mishmash).

Show me where in 4e this is the default assumption... otherwise this is just neonchameleon's view on the way things work.

 

[Imaro]

Not all magic is arcane. unless you don't call divine magic or primal/druid magic magic.

Another thing here - let's say Fighter cannot possibly do something fantastic because fantastic automatically assumes they use magic, and that violates the idea of them being just "martial dudes", so to speak.

Why even have a level 20 Fighter? What does Level 20 even mean if a Level 20 Wizard is superpowerful but a Level 20 Fighter is weak?

3E basically said there are wealth by level guidelines so that a high level Fighter has the necessary equipment to deal with equal level threats that may have magic at their disposal.

Alternative, maybe Fighter Levels just stop at 10, and afterwards, you become "Supernatural Warrior", maybe sacrifie your soul to some demon or swear and oath with a god or learn sword magic or acquire a fantastical magic artifact, but you get magic abilities that bring you en par with equal level "traditional" spellcasters.*

But what I just cannot see ever leading to satisfying play for me is the idea that a high level fighter is mundane and outshined by spellcasters. Either there is no high level fighter without magic abilities, or we define that in a fantastic world of Giants and Dragons, you don't need magic spells to do so fantastic things (it just helps.).

Of course, you could say levels are just a number to indicate when you get new abilities, it doesn't tell you if the abilities are good or as powerful as abilities from other classes. But then you're removing the game even further from anything I want to play. Not that you can't do that, I am just saying. t's hardly as if you need me on this ride.


*) That's kinda 4E imlicitely did - it introduced Paragon Pathes and Epic Destinies to highlight: "You're not just a Fighter Dude anymore." Whether people actually played this transition as meaningful is another matter.

I'm not sure what you're arguing for/against with me? I never said fighter's shouldn't have increased power and versatility... I'm arguing against the reason they now do being... "They just do!!!" since no other classs works like that.

EDIT: As to your point about the different types of magic... I agree, but they all still have a keyword that identifies them as a particular type of "magic" powers. Something like feystep doesn't... IMO that speaks to inconsistency and/or the fact that it is not magical.

 

[Imaro]

That's what I said: A wizard can magic themselves to the top of the mountain thanks to magic - which doesn't have to be explained.

If, as you admit, magic can't be explained then by definition spells can't be explained either since they are the manifestation of something which has already been conceded as inexplicable. Spells constrain magic, they don't explain it.

Dude, I don't know how many times I can repeat this... spells explain how and why a wizard can use magic to do things... as well as the effects he can use magic for.

It's simple and I'm starting to feel like you're purposefully reading what you want to into the answers I give you. as an example, at one point in time in our history, the makeup of fire couldn't be explained and wasn't known... yet fire could be created through certain processes (memorization and casting of spells) and used in certain ways (spell effects), regardless of whether we did or did not understand exactly what fire was/is. what you couldn't do was just create through any process or use fire to do whatever just "because".

Call it a paradigm of the D&D world. I'm asking what is the fighter's paradigm for gaining these powers?? In Exalted, he's explicitely a fallen demi-god. In Earthdawn he's and adept who unconsciously channels magic... so what allows him to tap into his power.

So when you say - what does a warrior tap into to jump up a mountain all you're asking about is what mechanism to use to constrain the warrior in the same way that spells constrain wizards.

Lets call it his force of will and heroism - although I think a far catchier and shorter term for that might be 'level'.

Now what is the process through which he does this, because otherwis everybody, regardless of whether they are fighters or not should be able to tap into and use will and heroism to accomplish great feats?

 

[Remathilis]

Most of those examples should be the kind of stuff fighters should be doing from the outset at level 1, or at least slowly learning as they approach level 5. Those abilities represent the bare minimum amount of combat strength fighters need in order to function against the myriad monsters and spell-casters they will fight. Those kinds of abilities there represent the bread and butter of what every fighter needs.

A high level fighter should have considerably greater power.

Furthermore, those abilities only help the combat side of things. Fighters still need to achieve parity to wizards' non-combat narrative power. If wizards can teleport the party and re-shape stone, what can fighters do to contribute as well?

Strongly disagree. I'd rather wizard magic be spread out more (flight at 10th level, teleport near 16, stone shape around 7th) than force fighters to throw mountains and leap over oceans. D&D already feels to SuperheroAnimeFunTime for me, I'd rather they scale casters back than move fighters and rogues into the realm of swordmages.

You know I read that list for "high level fighters" and then I look at the wizards. Give a fighter every single ability on that list by the time they hit level 6 in addition to their current normal abilities and I'd still say they had significantly less influence on combat than a 3.X 7th level specialist conjurer. (For a 1e post UA fighter the wizard might need fifth level spells).

And other than the perception issue (and arguably the stat buff) there's literally nothing you've listed they can do out of combat.

1.) Summons are notoriously broken. While a single summon might not be all that powerful, a horde of moderately high level monsters making full attacks with a wizard nuking IS the textbook definition of broken. Monster Summoning is an area of play that always breaks the game because adding any free party members for the cost of a spell slot is.

2.) Your talking at the encounter-level, where a mage can go nova and go back to his tent for the day. Of course the fighter can't compete with a 5th level mage who goes nova and then goes home: fireball, magic missile, magic missile, sleep, burning hands, scorching ray, and acid arrow is an amazing 7 rounds compared to attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, CRIT, attack.

There are ways to fix the 15 minute workday that don't involve giving fighters the same 15 minute workday.

I didn't put any of the non-combat skills on the list since a.) I wasn't sure where the line between fighter and warlord is drawn and b.) It didn't seem relevant to mountain tossing. However, since you asked, a high level fighter should be able to impress the peasants and nobles alike with tales of his prowess, intimidate lesser foes into backing down with a glance, goad foes into making simple mistakes, size up opponents to determine strengths and weaknesses, grant bonuses to allies though example and advice, and lead impressive armies, drawn to his cause by both coin and reputation.

You all can figure out the game mechanics for that.

 

[Remathilis]

Now what is the process through which he does this, because otherwis everybody, regardless of whether they are fighters or not should be able to tap into and use will and heroism to accomplish great feats?

Side Tangent: It might be an interesting world where everyone unconsciously taps into "magic" to accomplish his or her job. A scholar uses his Voluminousness Lore magic to have an encyclopediac knowledge of his chosen lore. A cook uses Culinary Artisan magic to make amazing dinners and baked goods beyond mortal ken. A barkeeper's Stern Visage entices everyone to behave in his tavern. A thief uses his Larcenous Acts magic to walk through walls and pick locks without tools. A blacksmith makes tools that never rust and weapons that rival enchanted blades with his Vulcan's Touch. A farmer uses his Green Thumb magic to grow Thunderdeath Furywheat to feed the whole kingdom. A hunter uses his Unnatural Aim to land his Buckflayer Shot against a Shadowstag grazing near a portal to the Shadowfell. And lastly, a dungsweeper uses Cleansweep magic to not get all over him.

Its not at all realistic, but it might be fun.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm arguing against the reason they now do being... "They just do!!!" since no other classs works like that.

"They just do!!!" sounds exactly like "It's magic!" to my ears.

 

[Fifth Element]

Strongly disagree. I'd rather wizard magic be spread out more (flight at 10th level, teleport near 16, stone shape around 7th) than force fighters to throw mountains and leap over oceans.

Scaling wizards back a bit would be grand, however there is an awful lot of excluded middle between what D&D fighters normally do and throwing mountains/leaping over oceans.

Perhaps the discussion would be more production if we could move away from these super-extreme examples and provide examples of what people think mythic fighters should be able to do in D&D. I'm sure some want to be able to cut a mountain in half, but they're probably in the minority.

 

[chaochou]

It's simple and I'm starting to feel like you're purposefully reading what you want to into the answers I give you.

Likewise.

Dude, I don't know how many times I can repeat this... spells explain how and why a wizard can use magic to do things... as well as the effects he can use magic for.

And I don't know how many ways it can be explained - it's simple. Spells cannot provide a 'how and why'.

Spells simply assert that magic exists and can be manipulated. They only tell you 'what happens'. They never, ever explain how or why. The only 'why' which justifies magic is 'because the rulebook says so'. And the rulebook can say anything.

So the rulebook can say this:
Once a day a fighter can, through force of will and courage, leap 500ft.
Once a day a mage can cast 'the spell' fireball.

If you ask me how it's physically possible for a fighter to leap 500 feet, first you must tell me how it's physically possible for someone concentrating and chanting and waving their hands about to incinerate a room full of goblins.

If you don't feel the need to explain that (which you clearly don't since you state 'magic can't be explained') then there's no need to explain heroism or courage (It's heroism and courage. It can't be explained.)

Holding one class to a higher standard of 'proof' or 'plausibility' than another is exactly the double standards being expressed in this thread.

 

[Imaro]

Side Tangent: It might be an interesting world where everyone unconsciously taps into "magic" to accomplish his or her job. A scholar uses his Voluminousness Lore magic to have an encyclopediac knowledge of his chosen lore. A cook uses Culinary Artisan magic to make amazing dinners and baked goods beyond mortal ken. A barkeeper's Stern Visage entices everyone to behave in his tavern. A thief uses his Larcenous Acts magic to walk through walls and pick locks without tools. A blacksmith makes tools that never rust and weapons that rival enchanted blades with his Vulcan's Touch. A farmer uses his Green Thumb magic to grow Thunderdeath Furywheat to feed the whole kingdom. A hunter uses his Unnatural Aim to land his Buckflayer Shot against a Shadowstag grazing near a portal to the Shadowfell. And lastly, a dungsweeper uses Cleansweep magic to not get all over him.

Its not at all realistic, but it might be fun.

Earthdawn is one of the coolest games/worlds where this is "almost" the case. There are adepts who can consciously tap into magic... nethermancers, wizards, illusionists, etc. and there are those who can unconsciously tap into magic... warriors, thieves, weaponsmiths, Etc.

The adepts tap into the magic through following a discipline (similar to a class but more) that is almost like a philisophical school that focuses them and shapes their worldview to the point that they are able to use magic to enhance their skills and abilities. the best thing is that they are still allowed to shape how they view their discipline within it's confines.

So a warrior could see himself as a living extension of every weapon in the world and thus choose a philosophy where he focuses on using and mastering them all... while another could see the warrior discipline as one about challenge and defeating one's enemies and thus choose to focus on the challenge of besting others in different arenas of combat. I'm probably not doing it justice but IMO, the game is really good at making D&Dish fantasy make sense.

 

[Imaro]

"They just do!!!" sounds exactly like "It's magic!" to my ears.

So wizards in D&D can just use magic with no restrictions or processes or limitations... is that what you are claiming??