D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Umbran]

Pre-Unearthed Arcana, the meatshield could be replaced by hirelings and attack dogs.

Tell the dragon (who has wiped out all your hirelings and dogs in one breath) that, and he shall chuckle.

And three times the hp? d10 avg = 5.5. d4 avg=2.5

Now add the typical constitution bonus, and yes, you probably end up with three times the hit points.

 

[Umbran]

TL;DR: The 3e and 4e max power levels are vastly different from each other and that's why unification is impossible.

Goign back to the beginning, and saying something that may already have been said....

What this all means, I think, is that you're not thinking of "unification" in the same way they are. A unified fanbase isn't all playing the same way - they're just buying the same ruleset.

One set of rules that can flex to reach both playstyles can unify the fanbase. That doesn't mean both styles have to be in play at the same table at the same time - merely that the ruleset can handle both.

It is, I admit, a tall order. But, they've been clever in design twice before, so maybe third time's a charm.

 

[nogray]

Now add the typical constitution bonus, and yes, you probably end up with three times the hit points.

Regarding the hit points, my 'three times' came from the fighter being more likely to have a constitution bonus. 9*d4 = 22.5 9*d10+1 = 58.5, or close to 3 times as much.

In 1st edition AD&D, the fighter is not much more likely to have a high constitution modifier than is the magic user. Both fighters and magic users prioritize one score (Strength for fighters, Intelligence for magic users) before a couple of "secondaries" (Dexterity and Constitution), and both of those secondaries go before the rest of the scores. The order of those secondaries is more of a personal choice than a systemically encouraged one. At 15 constitution, both fighters and magic users get +1 hit point; then at 16, both have +2. It isn't until a 17 constitution score that the fighter has an advantage, which is magnified further at 18.

If given the choice, magic users will end up with a high-ish constitution, just like a fighter. Of course, if there is no choice (any of the methods where you can't arrange your scores to taste), then it is pure chance as to who gets the higher score. The low end of the scale is slightly more interesting, as a fighter has a minimum constitution of 7 (no penalty), while a magic user has a minimum constitution of 6 (which nets a -1). (If you went with Illusionist in 1e, you'd have a definite point, as they must have a minimum dexterity of 16, forcing their priorities.)

In 1e, then, unless you are dealing with relatively generous rolling methods (such that the fighter ends up with a 17 or 18 constitution), you are likely to have the same constitution modifiers for hit points per die. Variation here is more due to whether the player prioritizes dexterity for AC adjustment or constitution for hit points, and by luck for what scores were rolled. (Perhaps even just luck, if no re-organizing scores to taste is allowed.)

In point-buy 3.x edition, both are likely to assign a 14, netting +2 constitution modifier. In fact, my experience is that a wizard is more likely to prioritize that, as adding +2 basically doubles their hit points per level, while it is only adding ~1/3 to the fighter's average.

I think a fairer statement is that fighters are likely to have slightly more than twice a wizard/magic user's hit points.

A further fair statement is that a wizard/magic user has a great number of additional options for avoiding hit point loss in the first place, though (through stoneskin, protection from normal missiles, etc.). Yet another is that the wizard/magic users are the only ones that can, under their own "power," alter their attributes above and beyond whatever leveling gives you (by virtue of the wish spell and/or magic item creation).

 

[Lanefan]

Yet another is that the wizard/magic users are the only ones that can, under their own "power," alter their attributes above and beyond whatever leveling gives you (by virtue of the wish spell and/or magic item creation).

If they're high enough level to be casting wishes it probably doesn't matter any more; and it seems only a small-ish minority of play groups ever get to that level.

Lanefan

 

[WarlockLord]

Tell the dragon (who has wiped out all your hirelings and dogs in one breath) that, and he shall chuckle.



Now add the typical constitution bonus, and yes, you probably end up with three times the hit points.

Well he's right. If you're high enough level to be fighting a dragon, you can replace the hirelings and dogs with charmed/dominated melee monsters, planar bound outsiders, or animated undead (like a hydra or giant or something.) Wizards have "get a tank" as part of their class features for a given level.

And I'm not sure how binding worked in AD&D, nor charm, but I do remember reading a play report where the cleric raised undead giants and made the fighter cry.

 

[Umbran]

In 1st edition AD&D, the fighter is not much more likely to have a high constitution modifier than is the magic user.

So you say, but assertion + plausible logic does not equal truth.

While I might be wrong, I think if you will review the pregen characters found in modules of the time, you'll find a different story.

And while this is entirely anecdotal, I think in the day folks would generally realize that the wizards, even with a high Con, were not going to stand long in a fight, while a fighter with a good Con might.

 

[nogray]

So you say, but assertion + plausible logic does not equal truth.

While I might be wrong, I think if you will review the pregen characters found in modules of the time, you'll find a different story.

And while this is entirely anecdotal, I think in the day folks would generally realize that the wizards, even with a high Con, were not going to stand long in a fight, while a fighter with a good Con might.

Regarding the last paragraph, you are absolutely right (barring, of course, things like stoneskin and other protections).

I would love more discussion regarding the first bit, though, as I am not sure what you are saying. (I don't have much experience with modules or pregens, just with the systems.)

In 1st edition AD&D, there were four methods for generating ability scores given in the DMG. Plenty of others were used as house rules, and the 2nd edition introduced a couple more methods. A plethora of other methods abound, and discussion can be found here.

(I didn't write that page, but I have found it to be a handy reference.)

I would be quite interested in any counterpoints that poke holes in my discussion, the conclusion of which was mostly just that "slightly more than twice" was a better comparison for fighter-to-magic-user/wizard-hit point advantage than was "three times."

 

[macrochelys]

So you say, but assertion + plausible logic does not equal truth.

While I might be wrong, I think if you will review the pregen characters found in modules of the time, you'll find a different story.

And while this is entirely anecdotal, I think in the day folks would generally realize that the wizards, even with a high Con, were not going to stand long in a fight, while a fighter with a good Con might.

DISCLAIMER: I have never played 1E AD&D so I may have made some incorrect assumption somewhere.

I grabbed some 1E AD&D modules from my closet and copied out the pregen stats for Fighters, Magic-Users, and Fighter/Magic-Users. Here's the data from the first 4 modules with pregens that I found:

Class	Level	HP	Con	HP Modifier
				
I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City
MU	5	15	12	
F	6	42	16	+2
F/MU	3	14	12	
F	5	31	12	
MU	7	16	15	+1
F/MU	4	12	6	-1
MU	7	22	9	
				
A4 In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords
F	6	54	18	+4
F	5	45	18	+4
MU	5	25	16	+2
F/MU	4	25	15	+1
				
S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
F	12	54	14	
F	7	42	14	
F	6	41	15	+1
F	5	38	17	+3
F	4	24	16	+2
F	8	48	14	
MU	11	27	14	
MU	5	22	17	+2
F/MU	5/8	24	14	
				
L1 The Secret of Bone Hill
F	4	21	13	
F	3	23	15	+1
MU	2	7	14	
F	2	16	14

From this:
54% of Fighters have a HP mod, with the average being +1.3
42% of Magic-Users have a HP mod, with the average being +0.7
50% of Fighter/Magic-Users have a HP mod, with the average being +0.0

It looks to me like the difference isn't all that significant, but I know this is a small sample size.

 

[Lanefan]

I would be quite interested in any counterpoints that poke holes in my discussion, the conclusion of which was mostly just that "slightly more than twice" was a better comparison for fighter-to-magic-user/wizard-hit point advantage than was "three times."

Thinking about the many characters who have come and gone through our games, I'd educatedly guess that the F vs. MU hit point ratio would normally be between about 2-1 and 3-1, other than at 1st-2nd level where it's swingier. Note: we roll for h.p. at all levels.

In 1e, however, everyone slows right down at name level and the ratio gets locked in at 3-1. In 3e when I played it, it seemed the ratio slowly kept getting more skewed toward the Fighter types as the levels got higher; pushing 4-1 near the end. (possible cause: warrior types put more resources into Con. enhancers?)

Lanefan

 

[Nagol]

Thinking about the many characters who have come and gone through our games, I'd educatedly guess that the F vs. MU hit point ratio would normally be between about 2-1 and 3-1, other than at 1st-2nd level where it's swingier. Note: we roll for h.p. at all levels.

In 1e, however, everyone slows right down at name level and the ratio gets locked in at 3-1. In 3e when I played it, it seemed the ratio slowly kept getting more skewed toward the Fighter types as the levels got higher; pushing 4-1 near the end. (possible cause: warrior types put more resources into Con. enhancers?)
Lanefan

They also gain levels more quickly after 9th than M-U's do after 11 and M-U get 1 hp / level versus the Fighter's 3 / level. A Fighter will get about 4.5 hp everytime the M-U gets one after 11th level.

Note: neither party gets a Con bonus at these levels either.