D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[pemerton]

I don't know what to say except re-read all of my posts with an open receptive mind?

I haven't reread them, but I've read them.

I wouldn't use the word "free pass" for the giant because there are aforementioned reasons why 99.9% of people don't have a problem with giant size in myth and fantasy.

The giant can stand, walk and jump as a biped - despite having (in some sense) mundane muscles and bones - because most people don't worry about the implications of that sort of mass for that sort of body structure.

The reason the fighter can't jump 500' is because of the implications of his/her mundane muscles and bones for that sort of mass, given that sort of body structure.

The two cases seem to me to be pretty parallel. That's why I don't really get the difference. We forgive the giant because, in fantasy land, we don't worry about minor details of physics. Why does the fighter not get the same treatment? - that's what I'm not getting.

(I'm not questioning your suspension of disbelief here - or its absence. I'm looking for the explanation/analysis that goes beyond being a biographical fact about you.)

You used the word "toughness". Are you singularly focusing on toughness or the whole mythic package including unexplainable abilities?

The explanation for the abilities I'm thinking of - epic jumps, the (notorious) levelling of mountains, etc - plus the example, from my own paragon tier 4e game, of the fighter-cleric shoving his hands into the forge to hold the artefact still - is toughness.

So for me there is no contrast between "toughness" and "unexplainable". Toughness does the explaining.

It's a bit like the Dark Wanderer abilities I quoted upthread. How does a martial PC do that stuff? Because s/he knows and has trodden every path. It's dream logic in action.

The dream logic also explains how the same fighter who survives a red dragon's breath, or (in my game's case) shoving his hands directly into a dwarven furnace, might later on die to a burning hands spell that hits him when he has only a couple of hit poitns left.

 

[Minigiant]

Can anyone really immerse himself into playing a Wizard?

My bosses and customers expect me to remember long strings of items from a list of thousand possible items, several items a day all day. I can't remember most of them seconds after typing them out.

---

When I immerse himself in a character and level up, I ask myself in the character's mind:

Why would Jon take another level in fighter? Over another class?

I metagame through the character's eyes.

What abilities and features does Jon want?
What abilities and features does Jon think he needs?

If fighting is still working at this stage of Jon's life, then Jon might still consider being a fighter.

If fighting is a bit lackluster at this stage of Jon's life and Jon sees the features of other classes more helpful, then Jon might not consider being a fighter unless he believes he can rely on an ally to provide those helpful features.

To me fighters don't have to be mythic or mundane. The class just has to be a smart choice through the level range of its existence.

 

[Underman]

The giant can stand, walk and jump as a biped - despite having (in some sense) mundane muscles and bones - because most people don't worry about the implications of that sort of mass for that sort of body structure.

The reason the fighter can't jump 500' is because of the implications of his/her mundane muscles and bones for that sort of mass, given that sort of body structure.

The two cases seem to me to be pretty parallel.

If mass and gravity are non-existent, then you can't compare non-existent physical properties.

You could, however, perhaps, ask that if a fighter can jump 500 ft, then a giant can also jump 500 feet.

If you wanted to do that kind of thing.

That's why I don't really get the difference. We forgive the giant because, in fantasy land, we don't worry about minor details of physics. Why does the fighter not get the same treatment? - that's what I'm not getting.

Because the fighter used to be landbound all this life and suddenly takes off 1 x day for no reason that nobody wants to give me to help me buy into it?

Maybe it's a behavioral question, rather than a physical one.

(I'm not questioning your suspension of disbelief here - or its absence. I'm looking for the explanation/analysis that goes beyond being a biographical fact about you.)

An explanation/analysis for an intuitive preference is a funny thing to analyze. And then when you do, people love to poke random holes in it. Not really a rewarding enterprise.

 

[Neonchameleon]

To me fighters don't have to be mythic or mundane. The class just has to be a smart choice through the level range of its existence.

And that is the problem. Being a mundane fighter at high level (for some value of high) in a high fantasy setting is never a smart choice. "I'll put on sword and shield and try attacking someone whose claw is bigger than my body".

 

[pemerton]

Because the fighter used to be landbound all this life and suddenly takes off 1 x day for no reason that nobody wants to give me to help me buy into it?

To clarify - is it the transition that is bothering you - a first level fighter can't jump 500' 1x/day (or whatever) and a 20th level one can?

If that is the concern, then this is the first post of yours from which I have clearly grasped that.

I guess I have been assuming that the fighter's transition falls under the same general heading as the other character transitions in D&D ie it's an accepted part of the game, and just as we don't look too closely at why a high level cleric gets more benefits from his/her worship than a low level one (even though presumably no greater in piety) so we can accept a fighter who starts out at the human level, and as his/her adventures become more dramatic in scope, and his/her place in the cosmos reveals itself to be greater than it was, so his/her full potential and epic power becomes manifest, and his/her true destiny gradually reveals itself.

The sort of flavour text MustrumRidcully provided upthread - fairly typical of 4e Epic Destinies - is more-or-less what I have in mind.

 

[Minigiant]

And that is the problem. Being a mundane fighter at high level (for some value of high) in a high fantasy setting is never a smart choice. "I'll put on sword and shield and try attacking someone whose claw is bigger than my body".

Not necessarily.

I played a more freeform high fantasy setting where magical defense, natural resistances, and spell resistance were so high at high level, using magic to kill anyone of worth was dreadfully inefficient except for extreme specialists.

Stabbing people and shooting them was a hundred times easier. So the strategy was protect the fighter.

But D&D was never like that. And the closest was the older editions with their straight class based save charts.

 

[Underman]

To clarify - is it the transition that is bothering you - a first level fighter can't jump 500' 1x/day (or whatever) and a 20th level one can?

Perhaps the more immediate transition from 19th level (no leaping) to 20th level (leaping 500 ft) is one of the bothers. And other transitions in time and space between various abilities.

You immersed yourself as the wizard with spell memorization. You imagined what it was like and you gave a couple of explanations. I thought both were very compelling and could be added to rich texture of D&D genre. But you see what you did, you drew upon real human experience to humanize the wizard. That's very powerful. You also already had a platform (the Vancian fiction) upon which to build upon.

How to do the same for purely martial abilities? The whole courage-and-will fighter concept brings up a lot of behavioral-related questions (especially when the mechanics meet the fiction in awkward ways).

The sort of flavour text MustrumRidcully provided upthread - fairly typical of 4e Epic Destinies - is more-or-less what I have in mind.

I also like those, as I wrote beforehand, but those are the kinds of explanations (or at least a foundation for explanations) that I thought you said weren't needed.

 

[Manbearcat]

We've canvassed a lot of issues that we speculate may be problematic for giants (they should probably be exceedingly short lived if nothing else as they would likely suffer hip dysplasia issues or other such complications after a short period...giant sauropods were expected to live a considerable percentage of their lives in water to mitigate the absurd load bearing requirements of their hips), but I find the main issue with DnD logic concerning monster is (I've already covered dragons flight) to be the exoskeleton. We've established quite well that the upper bounds of exoskeleton size limitations creates a bottleneck of arthropods right about the size of the creatures that we see today on our present earth. The fact that monstrous spiders and other arthropods in DnD exceed this inherent size limitation by orders of magnitude tells you that something funny is going on with biophysics or the physical in the world in DnD...or it tells you to do your best to be more forgiving of these physical anomalies.

I suspect that lack of care for, or ignorance of, the impact of trim characterstics or exoskeletal limitations while being relatively familiar with the human body (to say the least ) plays a role here. But if one is familiar with these issues and they cannot get beyond it, is it reasonable for them to request that giants and dragons and arthropods either explain themselves or that they be relegated in the core to aquatic subtype (or very short lived), ground locomotion and small size only with modules for earth subtype, flight and medium size or better?

 

[Manbearcat]

Further, I would say that if the 15 minute-work-day resolution is to advise the DM to "handle it" via pacing/story demands, random encounters or other such conventions...then I would say it is quite reasonable to expect the resolution of "mythic fighters" be to advise the DM to "handle it". Saying "No, you cannot play this. It befouls my setting.", is considerably easier than consistently handling all of the issues arising from and corner cases of the 15 minute-work day.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

*snip personal story*

That must have been a pretty scary experience for everyone involved.

I just remembered that my mother actually had a tiny amnesia experience - while ice skating she fell on her head and suddenly didn't remember a few things - nothing major, but she had forgotten for example that she had written an application for a job a few days back. As her son it wasn't necessarily a scary experience in that case, as she didn't lose anything significant, but it was definitely a very weird and unreal experience.

All that said, I gather in Vance that memorising a spell is more like the mental subjugation of an alien force - perhaps analogous in some fashion to telepathy or possession - and if that's right then maybe the amnesia analysis is wrongheaded. Maybe casting a spell is a relief, as you are no longer concentrating on trying to keep this unruly thing controlled and under wraps.

THat's how it works for my alter ego as well, I believe. The magic on discworld is certainly inspired by Vance. Rincewind cannot cast any spells not just because he's a bad mage, but because he has/had one of the Spells of Creation in his mind - and that didn't accept any other spells in there besides it.

D&D could be much cooler if it used that concept...