the druid PHB II shaphshifter , what am I missing ???

[Phasics]

Just been going over the numbers and I just cant seem to get my head around how they arrived at some of the values. for the Druid PHB II shapeshifter varient.

Now I'll grant free shifting at will is a nice thing to have but it seems alot has been traded off without much gain. Not to mention no animal companion so your damge potential is already down. So if somone could explain the rational of the following, I'd be greatful

espically considering you keep your own STR DEX and CON, as i read it it makes this class varient even more ability dependant than a paladin !

In case you cant be arsed reading the whole thing just give me you opion on whether or not keeping an animal companion would make the shapeshifter varient overpowered ? if it does what about a weaker animal companion gained at level three and progresses normally from there as if druid had multiclassed until lv3.
OR//
some magical items work when shifted e.g. atribute modifers
OR//
the dmg dice shown are for medium creature and need to be adjusted for larger forms i.e a 1d8 written on ferriocious slayer is acutally mean to be 2d6, 1d6 meant to be 1d8 etc etc
2d6 on elemtnal should be two steps hgher 2d6 ---> 3d6 ---> 4d6.

back to main

For Arguments sake assume 28 point stats
STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 10

these dont include druid spell buffs

1st Level Predator Form
1d6 dmg (1st level thisis fine)
5 Reach (fine)
+4 STR (= STR 18 very nice at first level)
+4 Natural armour (= AC 16 also nice at first level)
50 feet speed ( defiently the shizznit at 1st level)

so AC16 with 1d6+4 damage (6-11dmg)
so 1st level no prob everything looking good

5th Level Ariel
1d6 dmg (bit dissapointing but ok)
5 reach (no surprise)
+2 STR (ok I can wear it)
+1 enchamnet to weapons (every 4 druid levels)
2 Natural armour (again can wear it)
40 feet fly speed ( well flying whenever wherever basically makes up for everything here)

the ability to fly as a swift action is very handy I'll grant you but your max damage is basically unchanged.
Porbably still use predator form for combat


Ferricous Slayer Form 8th Level
Size Large
damage 1d8 bite 2x 1d6 claw (hrmm brown bear gets 2d6 and 2x 1d8 ?!?!?!)
NOT TO MENTION BITE IS PRIME UNLIKE BEAR WHERE 2 CLAWS ARE PRIME
reach 5 (hrmmm brown bear which you apprently look like get a reach of 10 ?!?!?)
+8 STR (brown bear gets 27 STR ! 5 less)
+8 Natural Armour (bear only gets +5, 3 more , nice)
+2 enchament weapons
speed 40 feet (reasonable)

Gettin low on damage
Full attk 1d8+8 , 2 x 1d6+5 = 21-38dmg
comapre to bear
Full Attck 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+8) and bite +6 melee (2d6+4) = 24-48 !!

Less damage less reach for what ?!? extra 3 AC and swift shiftin ?!?!?


Forrest Avenger Form
Size Large (treant are huge so using shambling mounds for comparison)
Damage 2 x 1d8 ( GROAN )
Reach 10 (fianlly normal for large critter)
+12 STR ( mound gets 21 so where ahead for a change with 26 STR)
+12 Natural Amrour (mound gets 11 so ahead by 1 whatever)
+3 enchatment to weapons
20 feet (we're big and slow and we know it, BUT mound at least gets a swim speed too !)

ummm could i get some damge with my new form ? ... please ?
2 x 1d8+11 = 22-38 (hell we could do that 4 levels ago !)
vs
2 slams +11 melee (2d6+5) = 14-34 (keep in mind this is a shamb mound not treant)


Elemental Fury Form
Size Huge (a normal wildshape only gets Large elemental but gets huge animals so will compare to a Huge Elephant since dont get any special elemental attacks)
Damage 2 x 2d6 (well least we finally hit greatsword damage, Elephant gets 2 x 2d6) [large elemental gets 2d8]
Reach 15 (same for elephant)
STR +16 (elephant same)
+4 enchantment weapons
Natural Amrour +16 (elepahnt gets 7 , elemental large gets 10, least we're ahead here)
30 feet normal

Damage if you can call it that
2 x 2d6+14 = 32-52 (nothin to write home about)
vs
Large elemental 2 slams +12 melee (2d8+7) = 18-46
Huge Elephant Slam +16 melee (2d6+10) and 2 stamps +11 melee (2d6+5) = 26-56




So as far as I can see you lose a perfectly good damge dealing animal companion and then have to suffer more by having either same or less damage potential yourself ?!?!?! I thought the whole idea of this varient was that it was a combat varient where you more than make up for the loss of an animal companion with the damage you can do. Looking at this the only thing you gain is a slightly better chance of not being hit and that is made mute if you consider the natural armour feat. and magic enchament for free ? hell greater magic fang is hardly a burden to cast since it lasts 1hr/lv

So please if you can explain it to me, by saying focus on your actions in combat instead of worrying about your animal companion do they mean the chance to micromanage your sub par damage potential ? please somone what am I missing ???

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

It is, pure and simple, a balancing effect for people to use who are upset with Druids in their games being overpowered.

Yea. It's a nerf.

It's supposed to be.

It's also supposed to be simpler for everybody at the table, requiring less in judgement calls.

--fje

 

[Phasics]

It is, pure and simple, a balancing effect for people to use who are upset with Druids in their games being overpowered.

Yea. It's a nerf.

It's supposed to be.

It's also supposed to be simpler for everybody at the table, requiring less in judgement calls.

--fje

I acutally like the more simplistic version which is why I persit with it. But did they have to nerf it so much *groan* .

Surely if nothing else they could have left the animal companion on ?

 

[Christian]

IME (and I'm playing a shapeshifting druid now, just about to hit 7th level), the swift action change with unlimited at-will uses is worth more than one might think. Yeah, your 8th-level wildshaping druid could, in theory, be a brown bear all day & be tougher in combat than the shapeshifter. But--one time he needs to be able to fly, it uses up his round's action & one more wildshaping use. Then, to get back to the bear, another round's action & his last wildshaping use--all done. Whereas the shapeshifter is always in whatever form is most useful, instantly. I know it doesn't sound like much, but for an apparently minor bonus, I sure do use it a lot ...

 

[Prism]

I'm not sure if shapeshift is better or worse but a few things interest aside from the fact its much simpler to play

Firstly I like the fact it starts at level 1 rather than waiting until 5th. Also it is use at will which is considerably better than wildshape and being a swift action rather than a standard is good too

You also get a greater magic weapon effect on 'each' natural attack for free which is worth up to 3 third level spells (for 3 nat weapons) and is hard to pull off as a nornal druid without taking the natural spell feat. I also like the various free feats you get such as flyby attack, mobility, improved crit, improved overrun and great cleave

The damage output is generally lower and you need to start with better physical stats but the reach is about the same - large animals including bear only get 5' reach. The natural armour seems much better can can still be boosted by barkskin as its an improvement not a bonus

One of the biggest losses I would say is the lack of improved grab, pounce, rake etc but I'm not sorry to see these go for a druid to be honest. I have just played a druid up to 10th and to be honest the grappling, although the rules made sense eventually, was a mess. Also having to have a list of monster forms pre stated at each level is a pain. Working out grapple bonus's and attack bonus's on the fly is way to complicated mid combat

You can still have an animal 'companion'. Just go and find/buy/train one, possibly even better than your normal druid level would allow. Sure it loses a few bonus's but with DM approval you could maybe have advanced versions instead

 

[MarkB]

You can still have an animal 'companion'. Just go and find/buy/train one, possibly even better than your normal druid level would allow. Sure it loses a few bonus's but with DM approval you could maybe have advanced versions instead

My orc shapeshift druid carries a tan Bag of Tricks with him. He's named each of the creatures it produces, and calls them his 'animal companions'. In his backstory, he was banned from keeping conventional animal companions after losing four in a row due to non-malicious but nevertheless fatal mishaps, and was issued the bag of tricks as a replacement.

 

[Tetsubo]

I love the Shapeshift option. The only thing I see it lacking is an aquatic form.

As for damage output... since you keep your type, Enlarge Person will bump you up a size and increase that damage die. Improved Natural Attack at 6th level will make your bite more effective, take it again at 9th for your claw attack and at 12th for your slam attack...

A human Druid could also have the Spring Attack feat by 6th level, not bad with the base form which has a move of 50...

This is darn close to an ideal shapeshifting class now...

 

[Phasics]

This is darn close to an ideal shapeshifting class now...

I agree, like I said I really like this class varient I feel the premise behind having specfic forms you can shift into is good both from an RP and game mechanics stand point.

I guess having not yet had the chance to play one (hopefully should get started in a few weeks) I just look at the numbers and can't see it holding it own as well as it should for losing an animal companion. :\

it good to hear the swift shifting comes in handy more often than not, more looking forward to playing it now. Heh I guess its just unfortunate they made it in the shadow of an overpowered druid , perhaps one can hope for some friendly shapeshifter errata.

I made another post about getting Psionic Fist for the 2d6 and evenutal 4d6 dmg bonus upon release of psionic focus (plus psionic meditation , move action to focus) help beef up the damage of the forms ? any other good feat combo's apart from weapon focuses etc ?

 

[Deset Gled]

I just look at the numbers and can't see it holding it own as well as it should for losing an animal companion. :\

Honestly, I never liked the animal companions to begin with. From a roleplaying perspective, it doesn't make sense to me that a druid would be bringing their best animal friends along with them on dangerous adventures. Animal companions are very weak compared to the monsters a typical druid will be fighting, and are likely to be killed.

Animal companions primarily exist to fulfill the archtype of a nature buff living in the forest with all her animals pals, and are a nice effect for stationary NPCs. But PCs should be using their ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally instead.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So please if you can explain it to me, by saying focus on your actions in combat instead of worrying about your animal companion do they mean the chance to micromanage your sub par damage potential ? please somone what am I missing ???

Simplicity & Speed.

Animal companions, especially at higher levels, tend to be released on a regular basis and new ones recruited as needed. They require extra book keeping, tend to be targets simply due to their size and blatantly dangerous nature, limit traveling options, and generally require dubious wisdom to bring a wild animal into such alien environments.

It is a pain to deal with the multitude of animals out there with their various stats, feats, attacks, etc. Even using software (PCGen and animal forms as templates) meant a druid player had to have a dozen different character sheets handy.

The game bogs down horribly when a new environment appears and a druid searches for the "perfect" form. As a DM it is a nightmare to run a druid NPC if something unexpected (aka "player driven") occurs.

Right now there's a Druid(Shifter) IMC as a cohort. I've updated PCGen to include the alt forms but the player forgot to print them for the last game session. It took all of 5 minutes to put the alt form stats on note cards.